Tried Organic Sun Screen ?

[Captain Bill]

Very nice tank Bill. I too am using aquacultured corals and fish.

I just wanted to make the point that though some of the lay articles based on the scientific paper discussed here state that the tests indicated that Sunscreen was killing the reefs. If fact the actual scientific article only demonstrated a bleaching effect, not coral death. I also want to make clear that I only said corals can recover from bleaching events, not that they always do. The issue is that to a casual observer a bleached coral might look like the dead white coral they might see in a shop somewhere. Real dead coral on the otherhand quickly gets colonized by algae and settling organisms and does not stay white very long.

[Christian Van H]

WOW, what a beautiful tank! Also a great way to study symbiotic relationships, only a small percentage of which have yet to be discovered. There is so much we dont yet know... Nice fish anyway, NOW PUT THEM BACK!!!

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by bstreep

For those that MIGHT be interested, here are some pix of the reef in my living room (

reefin streep style - MAAST Forums

Truly wonderful photos. Superb lighting in the photography.

[Robertcateran]

Lovely tank, really nicely balanced

[bstreep]

Jason sunscreen (Organic) ingredients. For some reason, this cracked me up:

Active Ingredients: Titanium Dioxide (8.0%), Zinc Oxide (2.5%)

Inactive Ingredients: Aqua (Purified Water), C12 15 Alkyl Benzoate, Vegetable Caprylic (Capric Triglyceride), Sorbitan Isostearate, Sorbitan Sesquioleate, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Calcium Starch Octenylsuccinate, Ethyl Macadamiate, Dimethicone, Glyceryl Laurate, Stearalkonium Hectorite, Triethoxycaprylylsilane, Anthemis Nobilis (Chamomile) Extract (Certified Organic), Castor Oil Phosphate, Calendula Officinalis (Marigold) Flower Extract (Certified Organic), Propylene Carbonate, Magnesium Sulfate, Benzyl Alcohol, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Benzoate

[schoonerdog]

You're ingredients are for a different product. I am talking about this stuff.

[GordMay]

So Cindy, what is it that you like rubbing into your kid's skin, as found in Jason Sunbrella Sun Block SPF 46 - Kids (per your “This Stuff” link)?

Ingredients*:
Titanium dioxide, zinc oxide, octyl methoxycinnamate, octocrylene, benzophenone-3, octyl salicylate.

Additional Ingredients:
Purified Soft Water, Green Tea Extract, Dimethicone, Sunflower Oil, Cylcomethicone, Stearyl Alcohol, Aloe Vera Gel, Deep Sea Algae Extract, Almond Oil, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG 100 Stearate, Steareth -20, Comfrey Extract, Jojoba Oil, Shea Butter, Kukui Nut

* I understand this to indicate “active” ingredients.

[GordMay]

In the context of health & safety, how do we define marketing terms, such as Organic or Natural?

For instance, clostridium botulinum bacterium (botulism) is a completely natural & organic toxin, of which less than 2 kg (5 pounds) would be enough to wipe out the entire human population.

An interesting book on the subject:

How to Poison Your Spouse the Natural Way
by Jay D. Mann PhD

One of the great myths of alternative medicine and the health food industry is that natural things are better than artificial or synthetic things because natural is natural and Mother Nature wouldn't want to hurt us. Wouldn't she just?

Plants and animals have had many millions of years to evolve ways of protecting themselves against predators and competitors for resources. Humans have had about 100,000 years of hunting and gathering to evolve natural resistance and about 10,000 years of agriculture to breed out the nastiness, and these times are just not long enough to make much difference. We are surrounded by plants and animals which can do us great harm if we are not careful about what we eat, and also by a myriad of fungi which delight in making safe foods unsafe...

[bstreep]

Ok, now remember, I'm a molecular biologist, by education...

So, if we ALL will recall, the active ingredient in sunscreen for years was PABA (Para-Aminobenzoic Acid). THIS is funny, from wikipedia: "4-Aminobenzoic acid (also known as para-aminobenzoic acid or PABA) is an organic compound"

So, what is and what isn't "organic". Again, per wiki:

Organic certification is a certification process for producers of organic food and other organic agricultural products. In general, any business directly involved in food production can be certified, including seed suppliers, farmers, food processors, retailers and restaurants. Requirements vary from country to country, and generally involve a set of production standards for growing, storage, processing, packaging and shipping that include:

• avoidance of most synthetic chemical inputs (e.g. fertilizer, pesticides, antibiotics, food additives, etc), genetically modified organisms, irradiation, and the use of sewage sludge;
• use of farmland that has been free from chemicals for a number of years (often, three or more);
• keeping detailed written production and sales records (audit trail);
• maintaining strict physical separation of organic products from non-certified products;
• undergoing periodic on-site inspections.

Anyone see a Titanium Oxide or a Zinc Oxide farmer around anywhere?

OK, being serious now, here's where Titanium Oxide comes from:

Crude titanium dioxide is purified via titanium tetrachloride in the chloride process. In this process, the crude ore (containing at least 90% TiO2) is reduced with carbon, oxidized with chlorine to give titanium tetrachloride. This titanium tetrachloride is distilled, and re-oxidized with oxygen to give pure titanium dioxide.[13]
Another widely used process utilizes ilmenite as the titanium dioxide source, which is digested in sulfuric acid. The by-product iron(II) sulfate is crystallized and filtered-off to yield only the titanium salt in the digestion solution, which is processed further to give pure titanium dioxide. Another method for upgrading ilmenite is called the Becher Process.


"Organic"? As most people perceive "Organic"? I don't think so. In any case, I'd still put it on MY skin. I just think that the marketing gimmick stinks.

[JiffyLube]

The scientific artical said

C

ONCLUSIONS: We conclude that sunscreens, by promoting viral infection, potentially play an important role in coral bleaching in areas prone to high levels of recreational use by humans.

The key word here is 'potentially'. That word doesn't mean it does, it means it could. There is coral bleaching in areas not prone to high levels of recreational use by humans too.

[bobsadler]

if i remember my chemistry "organic" was any chemistry based on carbon (C)

[GordMay]

I previously intended to, but didn’t, provide a link to the provocative, interesting, & informative book:

How to Poison Your Spouse the Natural Way
by Jay D. Mann PhD

How to Poison Your Spouse the ... - Google Book Search

[bstreep]

Jiffy - the problem with the original article was that it was INTENDED to spark reporters to report that it actually kills coral reefs. They got the attention they wanted, and just about EVERY report insinuates that: Sunscreen is killing reefs - is a fact.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Jiffy - the problem with the original article was that it was INTENDED to spark reporters to report that it actually kills coral reefs. They got the attention they wanted, and just about EVERY report insinuates that: Sunscreen is killing reefs - is a fact.

That is my problem.

I just want to stop reading and go sailing.

Need boat though.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Jiffy - the problem with the original article was that it was INTENDED to spark reporters to report that it actually kills coral reefs. They got the attention they wanted, and just about EVERY report insinuates that: Sunscreen is killing reefs - is a fact.

Bill:
The problem with your objection, is that it’s directed to the reportage, in the popular press, about the study - not to the study (& it’s authors’ conclusions) itself.
This is a bit like me holding you to account, not for what you say; but for what someone else says you say (or says you intended to say).
Respectfully,
Gord