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Old 23-09-2015, 20:11   #61
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Re: Something for us all to think about

Thanks, Gamayun. That made my night.

TJ
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Old 23-09-2015, 20:13   #62
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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Originally Posted by TJ D View Post
Fryewe, thank you for the good words. I'm unfortunately quite used to folks who tell me what I'm doing is bad, horrible even, never mind the facts. I've spent my entire career very much engaged on the realities out at sea, but that's not relevant because I'm a harvester and therefore part of the problem. Nonsense, I say.

It's usually portrayed as a 'corporations raping the ocean, lying about the facts, no care for anything but today's profits'.

The family that I fish for has been operating in the fishing industry continuously since 1907. Does this sound like an organization which cares nothing for sustainability?

Anyway, there is no convincing someone who has already made up their mind. Of course, if the only solution is to drastically reduce the planet's population or to dramatically lower the wealthier countries' standards of living, I'm not on board. Certainly fishing done properly is WAY down the list of the ocean's ills.

It's probably worth noting that I live on my sailboat full time, and cruise extensively in my spare time. I can count on one hand the number of nights I spend in a year sleeping on land. Certainly I have a deep reverence for the marine environment. So, it gets old to be told otherwise, but as I said before there's no changing some minds. But I do try from time to time.

Good sailing.

TJ
I won't reply to Fryewe post as I won't address simply attacking posts. And I do appreciate your honesty and your contribution.

Having worked in the marine industry, every fishing trawler captain I've ever met has always claimed the same thing as you do. Interestingly enough, if you watch some of those fishing shows on HBO like Trawlerman, you do get some of them admitting that they are going to wipe out their fish stocks completely one day. So there are some either sensible enough or honest enough to admit that they are part of the problem. I certainly don't take Fryewe's claim seriously that your just trying to feed your family, not on 22 million tonnes was it?

And just because someone works in the industry does not mean they know ANYTHING about the ecology of the industry.

My believe is that just because a company exists off something in nature, like fishing, does not mean they have an interest in sustainability. Not by a long shot. Fishing companies claimed that with Orange Roughy when it was discovered down here and they nearly wiped it into extinction. Abolone divers, cray fishers, scollop divers, all claim they are all for looking after the environment, and yet are the first to complain when authorities have to tighten the catch limits due to over fishing.

I will never be against fishing. Never. What I am against is large scale fishing as you seem to be involved in giving the tonnage your talking about, which benefits few but immediate employees and other than that all the money goes to the large corporations and owners. Your type of fishing is not sustainable fishing.

Would you mind me asking, on what company you actually work for so we can perhaps do some searching on what sort of company the real impact is?
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Old 23-09-2015, 20:23   #63
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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There's another point here that most people have never heard of.

Our concept of normal fish stocks was developed decades ago, when whale populations of all species were at extinction levels. It is certain that fish stocks were much lower prior to the 18th century when humans began to take whales in large numbers.

They've now rebounded. Whales are now the number one competitor with humans for fish, and the populations of most whale species are very near sustainable limits. Furthermore, baleen whales are the number one competitors against fish for planktonic life, reducing fish stocks at the bottom of the food chain as well as the top.

Like humans and basically every other species, whales will increase their population until food stocks no longer support growth.

With two top-predators (whales and humans) pressuring fish populations, dramatic declines are inevitable, and, unfortunately for us, take limits imposed on people won't result in more fish, it will result in more whales.
I don't have a problem with more whales. it sounds like a good thing. of course I'll need to buy a bigger barbeque
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Old 23-09-2015, 20:37   #64
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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I don't have a problem with more whales. it sounds like a good thing. of course I'll need to buy a bigger barbeque
Then we'll be cutting apple orchards down just to impart a nice apple smoke flavor to the large size BBQ.
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Old 23-09-2015, 20:40   #65
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Re: Something for us all to think about

Hi RC

I won't disclose my employer on an open forum online.

I readily agree, and indicated such in my first response, that people can adversely impact the ocean ecosystem. Of course we can. We have, and we are still doing so.

I can only speak to my portion of the industry, and you'll just have to take my word for it that I know it and also the stock assessments/science relating to it quite well. I'm keenly interested in the ethics of my work and therefore have taken a lot of time to learn a great deal about the way it is conducted. Probably much more than your average skipper.

Here's the problem with your point of view. It's easy to take the history of a fishery in one part of the world and assume that the same story applies to ALL fisheries. One of my favorite anti-fishing propaganda pieces showed massive coral reef destruction thanks to tropical shrimp trawlers. With no clarification, we suddenly switch to an Alaskan trawler, which is also destroying tropical coral, apparently, and should therefore be banned due to habitat destruction. This is the widespread misinformation that makes those of us who know better pull our hair out and also earns Enviro NGO's a good deal of mistrust.

As far as scale goes. It does not matter if fish are caught in very large quantities by a small number of large vessels or if they are caught in smaller quantities by smaller vessels.

As long as harvests are kept within sustainable levels, the method of removal is simply an emotional issue. This point can't be emphasized enough.

Also, I fish up there in the middle of winter. There would be many, many dead seamen if we were forced onto tiny boats that are more agreeable to some.

I mentioned Greenpeace before. This was one of their big bitches with our Pollock fishery in Alaska. The boats were too big, caught too much at a time. They did not take issue with the quota at the same time.

I remember attending a meeting with Greenpeace brass back then (this was 20 years ago, and according to them, we were on the edge of total collapse-stocks are in fact higher now), and they were advocating small-scale, community based fishing in the Bering sea. This is patently unrealistic. There is no road access, no rail access, no deepwater ports outside the Aleutians, and the coast is icebound for months per year. The only way to harvest the fish stocks in this area is via the 'large scale' operations.

Does this mean that the fishery should not exist, just because the boats are big? The best fisheries science on earth confirms that none of the fish species in Alaska are overfished, or in danger of becoming overfished.

So, where is the problem? An objective look would indicate that there is none. But, folks automatically assume that a big catch is a bad thing.

Mind you, the Pollock quota is in excess of 1 million metric tons per year. A 200 ton catch represents a miniscule portion of this quota.

About feeding my family. I don't think that anybody is suggesting that I said that my wife and I have 22 million pounds in our freezer... Also, nobody is suggesting that this is done for charity. But, I will tell you that the fish that I deliver is to a large degree consumed in Asia by people who need it for protein.

I know that I will not change your opinion here, my friend, but my respectful request to you is to educate yourself more fully on how responsibly managed fisheries operate, and please try to refrain from lumping all together. It's far more complicated than you are suggesting.

Regards, TJ
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Old 23-09-2015, 20:41   #66
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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Our concept of normal fish stocks was developed decades ago, when whale populations of all species were at extinction levels. It is certain that fish stocks were much lower prior to the 18th century when humans began to take whales in large numbers.
I don't think there is one bit of truth in this. The cod fish stocks were devastated just at or a little after the point that whaling was winding down. One of the early explorers of the northern North America that discovered the Grand Banks off of Newfoundland commented that the cod were so thick that you could walk on their backs across the water. A colorful exaggeration I'm sure but it served to illustrate the bounty of the cod resource. That was long before whaling was a world wide endeavor. I knew some people who worked in fisheries and they knew what was happening but because of world politics couldn't do much about it.
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Old 23-09-2015, 20:56   #67
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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I don't think there is one bit of truth in this. The cod fish stocks were devastated just at or a little after the point that whaling was winding down. One of the early explorers of the northern North America that discovered the Grand Banks off of Newfoundland commented that the cod were so thick that you could walk on their backs across the water. A colorful exaggeration I'm sure but it served to illustrate the bounty of the cod resource. That was long before whaling was a world wide endeavor. I knew some people who worked in fisheries and they knew what was happening but because of world politics couldn't do much about it.
There isn't DeepFrz, it's virtually strait out of the Japaneese book of whaling defence
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Old 23-09-2015, 21:11   #68
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
You go first. Sell the two bikes and the boat and buy a small scooter of the type that is ubiquitous in Asia carrying entire families.

Give the remainder of the sale cash to a good charity. Perhaps a Philippine one, where 2012 annual average income was 1584 USD, or about 130 bucks a month, far less than the widely discussed cruising on a 500 USD monthly budget on SN.

I'm sure your contribution would result in zero bonca boats being parked, and have zero impact on fishing or fish levels.

You do realize that if Westerners began consuming at average Asian family levels, the world economy would tank and widespread famine, disease, and conflict would be the immediate result? Or perhaps you don't.
Ah, thanks for providing the standard ostrich response. Maybe if you stick that head even deeper in the ground then you can block both your eyes and your ears from taking in reality.

BTW, my "bike" is a scooter. It gets over 80 mpg. My home is a tent, and a smallish sailboat. Shall we compare my negative impact on the planet to yours?
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Old 23-09-2015, 21:15   #69
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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Hi RC

I won't disclose my employer on an open forum online. Fair enough, I wouldn't either. It's just with the sizes of catch your talking about I recognise it as being one of the main stayers.

I readily agree, and indicated such in my first response, that people can adversely impact the ocean ecosystem. Of course we can. We have, and we are still doing so.

I can only speak to my portion of the industry, and you'll just have to take my word for it that I know it and also the stock assessments/science relating to it quite well. I'm keenly interested in the ethics of my work and therefore have taken a lot of time to learn a great deal about the way it is conducted. Probably much more than your average skipper. Sounds good.

Here's the problem with your point of view. And here we go, you pretend to 'know my point of view' because I don't like what your doing.

It's easy to take the history of a fishery in one part of the world and assume that the same story applies to ALL fisheries. One of my favorite anti-fishing propaganda pieces showed massive coral reef destruction thanks to tropical shrimp trawlers. With no clarification, we suddenly switch to an Alaskan trawler, which is also destroying tropical coral, apparently, and should therefore be banned due to habitat destruction. This is the widespread misinformation that makes those of us who know better pull our hair out and also earns Enviro NGO's a good deal of mistrust. I can appreciate that. Fully agree with you. It's called propaganda and the fishing industry and government is just as good as NGO's for using propoganda.

As far as scale goes. It does not matter if fish are caught in very large quantities by a small number of large vessels or if they are caught in smaller quantities by smaller vessels. Well, this we disagree with. It makes one hell of a lot of difference to the amount of communities and people that stand to loose from their industries closing due to large multi-corporations. And in a practical sense, it makes a large difference to fish stocks if a single ship takes a large swallop of a stock at one time compared to many little fishing vessels taking over time which can give stocks time to rejuninate. But, I know it's not as simple as either of these two views.

As long as harvests are kept within sustainable levels, the method of removal is simply an emotional issue. This point can't be emphasized enough. And it's wrong! It's not just 'emotions' for those hundres of thousands of fisherman who have lost their jobs due to large fishing corporations. Not only them but the hundres of thousands of community members who rely on substenance fisheries alone.

Also, I fish up there in the middle of winter. There would be many, many dead seamen if we were forced onto tiny boats that are more agreeable to some. Oh come on. Those tiny fishing boats have been around from fishings beginnings. Large fishing trawlers and fishing factories are a relatively new scourge on our society.

I mentioned Greenpeace before. This was one of their big bitches with our Pollock fishery in Alaska. The boats were too big, caught too much at a time. They did not take issue with the quota at the same time. Well, actually they didn't agree with the quote either.

I remember attending a meeting with Greenpeace brass back then (this was 20 years ago, and according to them, we were on the edge of total collapse-stocks are in fact higher now), yes, due to force sustainability measures though isn't it.. and they were advocating small-scale, community based fishing in the Bering sea. This is patently unrealistic. There is no road access, no rail access, no deepwater ports outside the Aleutians, and the coast is icebound for months per year. The only way to harvest the fish stocks in this area is via the 'large scale' operations. No they wern't, they were 'supporting' small scale community based fishing which was being devastated by large corporations. And did in the end!

Does this mean that the fishery should not exist, just because the boats are big? The best fisheries science on earth confirms that none of the fish species in Alaska are overfished, or in danger of becoming overfished. Well, I wouldn't know but a quick search of google suggests the Alaskan Fish and Game Department have other views

So, where is the problem? An objective look would indicate that there is none. But, folks automatically assume that a big catch is a bad thing. Yep, shuts down jobs, shuts down communities, challenges fish stocks.

Mind you, the Pollock quota is in excess of 1 million metric tons per year. A 200 ton catch represents a miniscule portion of this quota.

About feeding my family. I don't think that anybody is suggesting that I said that my wife and I have 22 million pounds in our freezer... Also, nobody is suggesting that this is done for charity. But, I will tell you that the fish that I deliver is to a large degree consumed in Asia by people who need it for protein. Well, if this is true, which I'll have to take your word for it, then what your suggesting is your company is making money by selling fish to much poorer Asian's?

I know that I will not change your opinion here, my friend, but my respectful request to you is to educate yourself more fully on how responsibly managed fisheries operate, and please try to refrain from lumping all together. It's far more complicated than you are suggesting. Na, that's not really respectful friend.

Regards, TJ
Thanks for your explanation, I do appreciate it. And I appreciate that you have kept it civil as well. From my perspective, you have parrotted nothing more than is commonly stated by most commercial fishing fleets.
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Old 23-09-2015, 21:20   #70
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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Ah, thanks for providing the standard ostrich response. Maybe if you stick that head even deeper in the ground then you can block both your eyes and your ears from taking in reality.

BTW, my "bike" is a scooter. It gets over 80 mpg. My home is a tent, and a smallish sailboat. Shall we compare my negative impact on the planet to yours?
love that for a come back. Perfect

I was once accused of being a racist in court. After I got over the shock, I addressed the magistrate in which I was giving evidence and informed him that I find that offensive. I have married an Aborigional girl, I have three aborigional children and I've adopted three Ethiopian children.

I'm not sure who had the biggest look of shock on their faces, the defendent or his solicitor who asked the question. The magistrate smiled and asked him if he had any more questions for the witness.
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Old 23-09-2015, 21:22   #71
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Re: Something for us all to think about

Well, that's all fine. We're not going to see eye to eye, obviously.

I do feel like it would be appropriate for you to share with the group what your credentials are in global fisheries management are. I've been forthcoming with my background. What is yours? You've covered fisheries around the planet and added cetaceans for good measure. I sense some parroting here as well...

TJ
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Old 23-09-2015, 21:30   #72
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Re: Something for us all to think about

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
When countries prosper economically the people produce less babies.

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
That is a correlation not a causation.
No, it's definitely a causation.

Increased prosperity
=>
better maternal/child health care
+
better education
=>
lower infant/child mortality rates
=>
less requirement for large numbers of children to be conceived.

The problem in developing countries is that many are now in the middle of this where the health care and education opportunities are improving so more children are surviving to teenage/young adulthood but the cultural shift to not needing so many children born is still a generation away.

(That's why the predictions are for a leveling off and then slight decline in world population as more and more people in developing nations get over that hump).
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Old 23-09-2015, 21:31   #73
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Re: Something for us all to think about

There is no doubt that fishing can be sustainable. It is a renewal resource that, if managed wisely, could last forever. I can't say whether TJ D is involved in a sustainable fishery or not. Speaking from the Canadian experience I can say our Grand Banks cod fishery was loudly and proudly called "sustainable" right up to the point when the fish population crashed and the stock was declared endangered. But it doesn't have to be that way.

The problem is not "the commons." The problem is an economic system based on individual greed; one that demands infinite growth in a finite system. Until we get our collective heads around this fundamental irrationality we will continue to destroy the ecosystems that sustain all life on this planet ... including ours.
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Old 23-09-2015, 21:33   #74
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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Well, that's all fine. We're not going to see eye to eye, obviously.

I do feel like it would be appropriate for you to share with the group what your credentials are in global fisheries management are. I've been forthcoming with my background. What is yours? You've covered fisheries around the planet and added cetaceans for good measure. I sense some parroting here as well...

TJ
now you just went and spoilt that good will and respect we just established with this dialogue. The only thing you have been fortcoming with is that you clearly work for a very large corporation of which I can understand you don't want to name. You have not given any 'credentials' for 'global fisheries management', and I'm not pretending to have any. And I'm not a fisherman, never have been, I'd be lucky to catch an undercised flat head on a good day. and no, you don't get to dictate a conversation with, 'I'm a fisherman so I know more than you do'.
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Old 23-09-2015, 21:35   #75
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Re: Something for us all to think about

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There is no doubt that fishing can be sustainable. It is a renewal resource that, if managed wisely, could last forever. I can't say whether TJ D is involved in a sustainable fishery or not. Speaking from the Canadian experience I can say our Grand Banks cod fishery was loudly and proudly called "sustainable" right up to the point when the fish population crashed and the stock was declared endangered. But it doesn't have to be that way.

The problem is not "the commons." The problem is an economic system based on individual greed; one that demands infinite growth in a finite system. Until we get our collective heads around this fundamental irrationality we will continue to destroy the ecosystems that sustain all life on this planet ... including ours.
yep, I like your responses 'oh bearded one'
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