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Old 20-12-2011, 07:52   #31
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

If you want to learn to fly you don't start out on an F16, you start out on a Cessna 172. Then after many hours of flying move up to more complex planes.

If you want to learn to dive you should start out on a basic open circuit and after building some experience move up to more complex equipment.
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Old 20-12-2011, 11:24   #32
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

There's been lot of dead bodies floating with rebreathers.. just right toy for a newbie diver (sarcasm)
There's actually few occasions when rebreathers make sense:
Diving deep and or long dives with technical gas mixtures (trimix)
Diving without bubbles like combat divers or foto/videographers of shy marine life (closed circuit only)
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Old 21-12-2011, 09:46   #33
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
There have been quite a few posters with diving experience give some good advise in this thread.

(I have a lot of respect for the guy in charge) Good salesman I would say. Just Be Aware (not saying your instructor is not good). I was bought up to learn basics well first and then progress starting with freediving. I see people that can hardly swim diving thesedays.

Why sell SCUBA gear/course if can sell RB gear/course.

As an experienced instructor/dive supervisor bought up when practical was as important if not more than technical (theory) aspects of diving. Canít say I like the way the dive training industry has headed in last couple of decades under the influence of technical, business (profit) models. Simply more technical, more money. If you have the money you can be a divemaster/instructor in no time flat despite very little real world experience. Definitely cheaper to teach theory than spend time in the water.

Perhaps I am just a dinosaur.

I just hope you can and have SCUBA accreditation after your course. If you do turn out to be a keen diver will be a lot easier to find a buddy. Will be a lot less around with rebreathers to buddy up with I imagine.

Have a good course and hope you enjoy your diving.

No, I don't think you are a dinosaur, and I respect your concerns about rebreathers. I think I am already a keen diver. I teach the Open water, a boat load of specialities and I am a Tech Diving ITC with SSI.
The instructor is actually and instructor certifier (and a good salesman too). He wrote the book for SSI TXR and is writing the book for SSI rebreathers. SSI requires more dives and class room time to get to the same level of certification as compared to the other agencies.
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Old 28-12-2011, 03:26   #34
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

I've been diving RB for the past 10 years - Closed circuit - Mixed gas..... Full Cave/Deep wreck stuff.....

But on a yacht (as a full time live-aboard) I would not use one.... Why ?Maintenance, O2, Helium etc are just too difficult when you are in remote areas.

On a yacht a Compressor with Air - is much easier, safer and less prone to failure.

all IMHO
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Old 28-12-2011, 04:10   #35
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

A rebreather is a military naval device, costly, complicated - you work with specific gasmixtures - and the refill is a special too.
As said by many others, it is like starting to drive in a F1.
It is a specialism of itd own and needs a special trained crew to maintain the gear and do the training as well.
One should know his limitations.
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Old 28-12-2011, 06:12   #36
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?


To quote Karl Denninger.... "
It is harder to kill yourself with the plastic bag [over your head] than it is with a rebreather"



I hold more diving related certs than I would care to admit all the way up to rebreather instructor trainer for several rebreather makers.

No matter what salesman says or instructor wanting to teach a class say....Rebreathers are NOT for beginners... period.

Additionally you should have a VERY compelling reason to need to dive on one (ie blowing stuff up, or photogs, caves, research, etc.)

Read and re-read the next sentence several times aloud...

"Rebreathers can unexpectedly kill you without you realizing it."

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Old 28-12-2011, 06:28   #37
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

There are only 2 or 3 manufaturers - I do not believe that one will sell you one without a certain background. As said, it is a naval military device, originally used for secret / silent submarine operations as it does not leave bubbles on the watersurface.

Offline could not said it better.

Our company used to supply naval equipment, also special diving gear, and I know perfectly the difficulties of the subject, although I do not dive. In any case, this kind of diving requires a crew of trained professionals - in line of Cousteau, Navy Seals and the like. For amateurs it is as easy as to drive a F1 in a GP - which means that you won't even come away from the starting grid.
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Old 28-12-2011, 07:08   #38
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

These RB's use O2 and air. No special mix is involved. They are not designed or intended for depths greater than 130 feet. These are recreational units. Costly and complicated?...can't argue with that
I'm not for or against this program yet, however Poseidon and SSI seem to be investing a lot of time and money in the program.
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Old 28-12-2011, 07:22   #39
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

Anyone can buy one and have it shipped to their house. However, only the certified trainer gets the access code to the onboard computers. So you can't use them until trained. This is true with all RB's on the market. (as far as I know).
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Old 28-12-2011, 07:44   #40
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

I remember when open water suba diving was concidered a life threating experiance, I am not that old, close to 50, I started diving in the 70's at a very young age, the development of equipment since then is amazing. I went through all the gadgets and now my dive gear is mostly made up of low end equipment with out computers, I have owned them and when they work they are great, but my analog stuff always works everytime. I have thousands of dives, and I would love to learn to dive with a rebreather, but cost, complexity, mantaince, and availbity have prevented it. If using a rebreather becomes cost effective, and safe then, I am all in, just like I was in the 70's when my parents where freaking out. But I am not your average guy. As someone else posted you don't start flying in an F-16, and they are right. I started flying in a Cesna just like everyone else and proceded to F-16's, then to test flying anything someone could come up with. I think rebreathers are comming, and for me personally, I am ready to go that route if all of the objections are overcome.
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Old 28-12-2011, 08:21   #41
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

Dived off a semi closed Drager rebreather for a couple of years. The real problem was the time involved with maintenance. After a dive I would wash down the boat (a rib), then wash down the normal scuba kit, then wash down the SCR and finally I would wash me. Since you are breather from counter lung it has to be kept spotlessly clean which takes time and effort to do it properly and in the end it just wasn't worth it. They are also more fragile.

Flooding the soda lime canister under water wasn't funny, especially the second time.

Lets be honest standard open circuit dive kit today is pretty bomb proof. A quick rise in fresh water then hang up to dry. An occasional service of the regulator and a good eye over the rest of the kit which most experienced divers can manage and that is it. For life on a yacht it will be scuba kit for me, indeed I carry a spare stab jacket and small cylinder on board just in case.

There is a time and a place for CCR, but it is difficult to maximise the advantages if your diving buddies are on scuba. Diving cold water lakes in the winter certainly became much more fun but you need time to adjust. You can't just breath in and rise above an object on the sea bed, all that happens is you swim straight into it with a thud and then laugh as the reality dawns on you what went wrong. Sneaking up on fish was an interesting experience too.

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Old 28-12-2011, 08:33   #42
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

I remember now that there are a series of semi-closed for the non-pro (military) market; perhaps that' s the stuff discussed here. I am only familiar with the professiona naval stuff from Octopus, Draeger and some other manufacturer that went through a series of buy-outs and now belongs to a Swedish syndicate.
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Old 28-12-2011, 08:43   #43
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

I don't get the need of a team of people to maintain an RB, they're pretty basic mechanically. A few o rings, a few valves and a monitoring system.
However operating is a whole different matter, and until someone comes up with a satisfactory way of monitoring CO2 levels you need to be very aware of what the unit is doing and what you are doing. This only comes from extensive use (training and mentoring) and a very good understanding of the issues.
How many drivers do you know who really shouldn't be on the road, despite having a licence and years of experience.
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Old 28-12-2011, 09:01   #44
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

I must have somewhere the full operational manual from Octopus. Shall look it up, it is in digital format and can be mailed to anyone interested.
This is the military apparatus.
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Old 28-12-2011, 16:35   #45
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Re: Rebreathers for Beginners ?

As a anesthesiologist and a diver, I can tell you that we can monitor CO2 levels, I do it every day. We can also monitor blood SaO2 levels and blood (not just expired air) C02 levels. I run a closed circuit 5 or more times a day, thousand plus in a year. The problem is technology has not been completely and safely transported to Diving (yet). When it does, and has a safe track record, I'll be there.
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