paint gun maniac!!!

[teamivey]

Yes there are many species that do exactly that. They get rid of their weak for the better of the species. We put our week on welfare and give them even more money as they reproduce. And even if I am wrong and that is our destiny to not limit our population and live as part of our planet but to be the absolute rulers therof, it would still be the end of our way of life. No room for cows to graze so no beef. No room for chickens so no eggs. We would end up eating paste. Thats a pretty far out extreme analogy but I think you get the point. How about this no room to Sail. Also I have been to every state in the U.S. This country didn't start becoming populated west of the Missouri river until about 150 yrs ago. Now L.A. is the second or third largest city in america. The room you talk about in Co. ut and az, is there because it is a wasteland. It will of course be the last to be populated. Since it did not support agriculture and farming early on, and there are no major rivers to supply these areas of course that is where you would find the room now. Of course those are the places we let the Indians keep in our benevolence, but that is another issue. Besides, simple mathematics would show that at our rate of reproduction and advancing life expectancy, At some point we would not be able to have enough room to turn around in. Its just a snowball. Besides it has already happened in China. And I could go on and on, but I already realize that is one of my character flaws. So look forward to reply.
Sean

[roverhi]

If every family unit in the WORLD was given a 10,000 sq ft lot, they would all fit in Texas.

Yes, there is a problem with overpopulation but it's not in the US. The problem is in the third world where they are doing such fun things as cutting down jungle for subsistance agriculture and burning every tree for fuel.

The overpopulation of many species are the direct result of mans removal of primary predators. We have to replace the natural predators. Hunters save the environment. Mother Nature has a brutal and not particularly endearing way of taking care of population control.

Aloha
Peter O.

[Pura Vida]

If I recall the literature correctly the most effective method of birth control among humans is affluence.

[Strygaldwir]

I don't think we can just look to the third world for our environmental issues! If the rest of the world used the same amount of oil as we do here in the US, we would deplete our know reserves in 65 months or so! The third world is just trying to use the resources they have to, subsist.

Ah, that's what I am talking about euthenasia for all those unfit to make there way in the world! If you can't bench press 250 lbs, get in the gas line, cause you're worthless. Then, if you can't tell us the formula for finding the area bounded by two points, rotated about the x axis, you're toast. And of course, if you can't pull a and rebuild a Yanmar engine from a forty footer in less than 120 hours, you have to be pitched into the sea! Heil!

I agree, too many folks, but the solutions, ahhhh, now that's the hard part!

[hellosailor]

" if we really thought that elk, deer, pheasant, or yes even geese tasted better we would have ranches full of them rather than cattle and the earlier listed animals. "
An interesting concept, but as any rancher will tell you, they raise and sell what is most profitable. Meaning, cheap and easy and doesn't fight back. Elk aren't quite as gentle as beef cows, nor as willing to be lead into a slaughterhouse. You could probably breed that out of them in a couple dozen generations, but then they still have long bony legs and antlers, little problems like that.
Many hunters will tell you they hunt for the freezer. And the single thing that sustenaince hunters, and professional cooks, all agree on, is that it is REAL EASY to screw up a kill and squirrel the meat (let it spoil by not cooling it right away, or rotting when it is too warm, same thing really) and that's when people start to say "ugh, venison, I had that once and it was horrible." But game meats command a much higher price than prime beef in the shops that carry it.

Geese? Well, again, ducks are easier to wrangle. And cows just don't jump over ten foot tall fences, the way deer do.<G>

[Alan Wheeler]

Actually the world can take a lot more people. The issues the world faces is not due to over population, but due manly to greed. We can grow enough food for everyone, but a few corrupt people stop millions getting it.
In the bigger scheme of things, people actually take up very little of the world.

Here are some interesting facts. Some you'll already know, hopefully some you won't.

71% of the Earth is covered in water.
Only 3% of that water is fresh.
Of that 3%, 2/3 is locked up in Ice.
Of what land there is, 1/3 of it is Desert
We have explored less than 1% of the sea. In fact, we have explored more of space than we have our own sea.

40% of the worlds oxygen is produced in the Amazon.
At any given time, 6 billion tons of water is held in clouds above the Amazon.
It is believed that 30% of the total Biomass of the Amazon is Ants.
And 20% of the worlds total animal Biomass is Ants and Termites
Insects are the biggest number of living things on the planet.
Approx 400,000,000 insects are in every acre of pasture land.

If you stood every Person in China, in a line 8 abreast and then got them to walk past you, the line would never cease, due to the number of Chinese being born.
It's an interesting place this world.

OK, move over, I am sure we can squeeze a couple more in.

[GordMay]

Although, As Alan indicates, ”... the world can take a lot more people ...”“ than our current 6-1/2 billion plus; I wonder at what standard of living - or more precisely, at what level of consumption.
We probably don’t even have the resources (natural & otherwise) to support our current population, at anything near a “western” standard.
Can we develop “new” resources, quickly enough to support additional population, at a standard higher than mere subsistence?
I know I’m not enamoured of the idea of subsidizing new population from “my” resources. I’m not even eager to share a significant amount of my wealth with my current (needy) planet-mates.
I'm a philosophical communist, and I use the first person singular facetiously, actually meaning “we”.

[Alan Wheeler]

Firstly to make my self very clear here, I am NOT siding with any particular political bent. I think there are good and bad points to any political system.
The basic "hole" that we all fit (not fall) fit into, is that we put a value on our own time and abilities. So we do not do anything with out it meaning some form of reward for what we do. As one programme of "Friends" went, Joey told Pheebe that there was no such thing as a truely selfless act. If we want the world to be all "equal" it would mean each and everyone on us would have to do totally selfless acts and that just isn't Human nature.
Lets face it, we live in a Capitilist society. Even Comunism is still capitilist to an extent. At some point somewhere, someone makes a personal gain from the system. It's kind of a Pyrimid scheme on a grand world wide scale.
If we look at it another way, There is room for more and room for all. There is food for all and we can produce food for more. The planet falls over because no one will do something for nothing. We don't grow the food because we don't get paid what we want (and because of the system, need to be paid to cover the costs of growing), we don't solve the energy crises because of money, we don't solve polution because of money, we don't solve refuse because of money. It can all be done, but it doesn't get done, because "I/we" want a reward for my/our skills that took me/us many long hard years to obtain and not many others can do.
Heaven will be different

[GordMay]

Do I understand you correctly - that increased demand, caused by increased population, will result in increased production? The productive capabilities exist, but aren't motivated to action.
Where will all these "new" people get the wealth to pay for their sustinance?

Just to set the record straight; I don'r view my politics as "bent", though I have been, on occasion, characterised as a "hole".

[Alan Wheeler]

Nope not at all. Not what I am inferring. Did I say that?? maybe, I dunno, too damn complex anyway and in the end, who really cares. I say, lets go sailing and enjoy a "sunsets over the yard arm". Ain't that why we do this?? to get away from all the world crap???

[teamivey]

I love this discussion. There seems to be a fair amount of intelligence in this forum. Even if only half of you can spell SUSTENANCE. (I probably just spelled it wrong also. Ha!) However facts are facts. If you simply look at the math, and the history, the time is coming. It would be nice for all of us to live more responsibly. I am no treehugger, but when I hear about overpopulation of animals it makes me shake my head. Cull the number of deer and a few years later they will have a bounty on coyotes. Do you realize that buffalo herds used to number as much as a million strong. I guess there is no overpopulation problem with them. Those buffalo supported many predators and carrion feeders. I'm not saying quit hunting or building, I am saying do these things responsibly, and not with the attitude that we as humans are the only thing that matters. Most of this goes back to the paintball guy, you don't go out and maim animals because they crapped on your boat. I think we have all been in a situation (hopefully not to often.) where we were drinking and someone had to much and vomited. We don't kill them for staining our carpet. Any how I love intelligent discourse and look forward to all of your replies.

Sean

[teamivey]

Oh yeah got that tranny pulled. Whew,what a job.

[hellosailor]

Gord said the magic word, "wealth". That's what it all comes down to, not population or growing area at all. There will always be something around to eat, and someone around to eat it, and if that's sometimes rough on the eaters or eatees....that's the way it works.

"Society" and "civilization" and "conservation" are all damned thin shells, nice trick if you can make them work for any large long scale. And then there's the deer...it really is amazing if you look into how many cars they total and drivers they maim and kill in their "deer-i-kazi" attacks every year. Who says Mother Nature has no sense of humor?<G>

[Lostmt]

Deer don't maim and kill. We maim and kill them. We mow the highways so some dumb person doesn't throw out a smoke an burn up 1000's of acres of land along with our fancy homes. We need every thing pretty as not to offend someone. The mowed grass is young and tender that is why the deer and elk are there. We just happened to put a major hwy inside their yard. Then blame them for running into our fancy car at 90 miles an hour while we are talking on our cell phone. We should all eat deer and elk this way the rancher that raises cattle doesn't have to worry about buying at retail and selling at wholesale. In my 30 years or so ranching I have never see a cow or bull jump a 10 fence and only have seen one deer do it. That one was being chased by a lion in South Texas.

We will run out of land. Oh yes we will. We are building every day on prime agurcultural land that has feed us. When thats gone so is our food supply. We are such a large country we can not see the damage we are doing. We build in the mountains and then complain about the bear getting into our trash and have them killed. My point is we go to where they are and then complain about them. We were not invited we just took over.

I'm not a tree hugger or an enviromentilist (can't even spell that word) but I can see what is happening.

I agree with the word Wealth. We have to alway have more. Funny thing I have never seen a armored car go with you when your time comes. We all come into this world with nothing and leave the same way. To me it is how I walk this earth that matters most. You don't look for rewards or monatary wealth in what you do. The latter is tall and hard to climb to become a true human and few make the climb.

Just the cowboy in me

[hellosailor]

"We maim and kill them."
Comes with being a terminal predator, instead of prey. Think very carefully before you relinquish that role, because it WILL go to something else.