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Old 28-11-2006, 11:32   #16
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"The median price of housing is now north of $700K and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, under $400K. " Well, you could do like many co-ops and condos do. They are "communities" even if they are smaller than islands, and many units sell for those same prices. Pass a flip tax (sales tax) on the sale of each home, so no one has to pay out of pocket until their new high value has appreciated. And from the flip tax, fund a municipal insurance program to pay for a harbormaster and cleanup operations. Or, it that is a public waterway...it might just be the USCG who are responsible to pull the wreck and clean it up, and there might be no need for anything done locally.

I knew someone who had a jones to sail around the world, with no experience and no patience for the longer tasks of rebuilding and learning on a used boat. He wouldn't listen to folks who told him to stick around and work up his boat handling, set off when he decided "it's time" and was lost at sea within sight of the New Jersey coast in bad weather within 36 hours of his start. He'd been sighted from shore, but the wx was bad enough that the USCG couldn't make it out from any local inlet to attempt assistance.

We assume he actually drowned, but no body was ever recovered. The boat was found in about 50' of water with the top few feet of the mast sticking out, and after the NJSP and USCG did their diving and investigating, the widow was told that she had to either remove the wreck, or pay the USCG for the salvage bill, because it was a hazard to navigation.

Some news to get, huh?

Which is also why an insurance policy that covers salvage is a nice thing to get--for whoever you might leave behind, stuck with that bill.

So, it might pay your town council to find out the real issues of *admiralty* law and whether they own that water or not, and ten explore the options for managing it better. Or, calling the folks who should be doing that job.<G> Sometimes it just takes a dime, and knowing how to use it.
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Old 28-11-2006, 13:29   #17
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Perhaps all of you need to know, to boost your spirits and/or improve your cruising plans, that Florida's Supreme Court recently determined that ALL local communitiy ordinances which prohibit anchoring were illegal. At about this same time, members of the SSCA were objecting to Miami's issuance of anchor restrictions before the City Council and this led to the SSCA protesting to other cities doing something similar. With FL's SC decision, NAMA joined the SSCA and both organizations - the largest membership cruising organization in the world, to my knowledge, and the primary manufacturers' association for marine manufacturers in N America - appealed to FL's legislature. The legislature subsequently passed (and the Governor signed) into law anchoring guidelines that protect ALL cruising sailors anchoring rights with 2 exceptions: 1) when a community establishes a mooring field, anchoring in the field can be prohibited; and b)boats that are *exclusively* used as liveaboard vessels (which by FL Statute has a very narrow definition and which does not apply to cruising boats) can be prohibited.

For those doomsayers who say the little guy's voice can't be heard, the SSCA protest started with a single person: Richard Black, a cruising sailor and SSCA Board member. The details outlining your anchoring rights can be found in the September issue of SOUTHWINDS which can be found on-line at http://southwindssailing.com/

Jack
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Old 15-01-2007, 17:19   #18
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town councils are generally populated with lazy idiots. they take the easy solution to stop the squeeking wheel. a few derelict boats being complained about by the richest folk in town? Simple, ban anchoring. Abuse the pollution issue as an excuse. But what do you expect, most council people get paid little or nothing, you get what you pay for. Gov't is run by the stupid and/or corrupt.
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Old 15-01-2007, 17:37   #19
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Now, xort, I find that comment is one that is easy to make, but inconsistent at least with my experience. As I said, I know several of the council members. Sure, a few of them I don't like and find tedious, wishy-washy and indecisive. But, I don't think anywhere near all of them are either lazy or idiotic. Having been around government for many years (although I am self-employed), neither have I seen much corruption. Not to say it doesn't exist, but I don't think it is any more than what exists in the private sector, and maybe less. As a matter of fact, several of the council members are very hard-working, spending 40, 50 and even more hours a week at next to no pay, reading vast quantities of really boring stuff, trying to do the right thing and make good decisions. They deserve our thanks, but very rarely get it.

As to the anchoring issue, I've passed on the "require insurance" suggestion and that has received a favorable response, so far, and one that could be enforced as part of the open water marina they have in mind. I'm sad that it seems to have come to that and wish it could be like "the old days", but that's the way it is.

Thanks for the constructive suggestions.

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Old 15-01-2007, 18:23   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euro Cruiser
Perhaps all of you need to know, to boost your spirits and/or improve your cruising plans, that Florida's Supreme Court recently determined that ALL local communitiy ordinances which prohibit anchoring were illegal. At about this same time, members of the SSCA were objecting to Miami's issuance of anchor restrictions before the City Council and this led to the SSCA protesting to other cities doing something similar. With FL's SC decision, NAMA joined the SSCA and both organizations - the largest membership cruising organization in the world, to my knowledge, and the primary manufacturers' association for marine manufacturers in N America - appealed to FL's legislature. The legislature subsequently passed (and the Governor signed) into law anchoring guidelines that protect ALL cruising sailors anchoring rights with 2 exceptions: 1) when a community establishes a mooring field, anchoring in the field can be prohibited; and b)boats that are *exclusively* used as liveaboard vessels (which by FL Statute has a very narrow definition and which does not apply to cruising boats) can be prohibited.


Jack
That may well be, Jack, but I was in Ft. Lauderdale (Lake Sylvia) and Miami (South Beach) last month on my way south and in both places we were approached by the local gendarmes and told of limitations of anchoring. They went to all the boats in both anchorages. One cruiser told the police about the new legislation and they said that they didn't care and that they enforced the local by-laws. I just said no problem when they came alongside. You have to understand that the average cruiser does not have the time or resources to go against the local authorities. Of course this was reported to the NAMA and SSCA. In my view the net effect of the new law is nothing's changed. We may be right under the law but that makes no difference for the average cruiser. Perhaps it'll change eventually but in the meantime nothing's changed. Most of us were on our way to the Bahamas. No time or money to get a ticket and try to fight it. Maybe we can get a volunteer to challenge the behavior of the local enforcement authorities.
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Old 15-01-2007, 18:35   #21
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Rick-
"One cruiser told the police about the new legislation and they said that they didn't care " This will vary in every state, but most of the US has some type of complaint and review process, and it is possible to file a formal complaint against the officer if he says "I don't care" when you tell him that he's enforcing a law incorrectly. That can be a departmental or even criminal charge, and while most PD's will simply try to dismiss it...if they start getting a number of repeat complaints, they can wind up getting into formal legal trouble and yes, they can be forced to follow the laws. So, if someone tells you "I don't care"...get their name and shield number, and report it, at multiple levels if the procedure exists. (PD, county sheriff's office, state police, state or local attorney general...there are a variety of venues, no idea which one is right down there.)

Eventually it becomes a federal matter if a proven "pattern" can be documented, and someone winds up calling someone and says "You're making us look like -------s, get with the program!".

Nice of the cops to come by and warn you though, instead of just showing up after ## hours and saying "Here's your summons." One hopes you invited them in for a proper cup of tea in the officers' mess rather than just sending them off, no?<G>
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Old 15-01-2007, 18:45   #22
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Fine in theory, hellosailor. We all know how the process is supposed to work. In the real world one neither has the time or resources to file and continue with a complaint. Cruisers are transients. Thay can't attend complaint hearings when they're scheduled in six months' time. They feel that it's a waste of time and money to take a cab to the station to report that an officer said he/she didn't care. If you dink over to the marine police they'll probably bust you for not having a whistle on the dink ot tying up to their dock without permission. That's the way it it is in the real world. The reason they came over in South Beach was to give us a written notice that we had to sign notifying us of the restrictions. They were very polite in Miami. Not so in Ft. Lauderdale. This is the first time they've come by in Ft. Lauderdale, in Miami they came by last year too but no written notices.
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Old 15-01-2007, 20:59   #23
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This issue varies from state to state. in Washington, the waters are owned by the public and the state can lease the waters to marinas, shellfish fisheries, and other marine users. They cannot legally prevent people from anchoring in harbors, unless they are in one of these leased areas or in an area that is unsafe for navigation.

Washington state has public moorings available in many harbors, licensed by the state which collects the revenues. Rates are maybe 20-30% of a dock in a marina. The Marine parks all charge whether people are anchoring or on a mooring. The boaters pay to use the moorings, so they are not like squatting and not paying for the use of the marine park anchorages. Most of the marinas are expensive and require insurance. If this happened to my boat at my marina, it would be out of there in no time. And I would be paying the tab or my insurance company.

We all here in Washington also pay a small fee in our annual registration for derelict vessel clean up and removal and the state will eventually remove this boat. In this case, they may be working with the owners to get the salvage started of what looks like a historic wood boat.

For the most part, I think Washington has good management of the state waters.
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Old 16-01-2007, 01:52   #24
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Lake Sylvia (Ft Lauderdale) has a long history of “no overnight parking” policy.
The affluent property owners, surrounding the Lake, have always been very zealous (and effective) in defending their perceived privacy rights.
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Old 16-01-2007, 07:24   #25
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ID:	789You'r right, Gord. They say it's 24 hours. This was the first year that we've had the police come around. maybe we were lucky all those other years. Here's one of the little cottages being built on Lake Sylvia.
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Old 16-01-2007, 11:24   #26
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It seems some have overlooked the perhaps the real issue -- the lack of places to put a boat - here in miami the marinas are disappearing fast along with DIY yards and most things marine on the water - except boats that can be stored in rack storage or stored on trailers - it is interesting that sailboats in miami are disappearing - example is the number of boats that particpated in the Columbus Day Regatta - there is some discussion that if the number of boats continues to decline it will be a thing of the past -
between the development of marinas to condos and the environmentalist that do not want any new marinas to protect the manatees or whatever the current cause (actually they want no develpment at all) and the sale of very large yachts that can pay a lot for dockage - it is just chasing people out - some of the communities down here have said they will ignore the new Fla anchoring law - the real reason is money speaks and there is a lot of money down here and they speak real loud when they want to - they also take over what they want to take over and stop development on what they want to stop -
i really can not wait to sell my townhouse move aboard and go crusing - it is very dishearting down here and very very anti boating especially sailboating
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Old 16-01-2007, 12:06   #27
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Rick, we all know the way the game is played but I would think we all also know that game is played by simple cheap bullies. And even the cops will tell you that bullies often become cops because it legitimizes them.

You have two choices, invest the effort to stand up to them--even if that means just filing the complaints and declining to return for the hearing, so the complaints are on record--or don't invest the effort and let them go on stealing lunch money from everyone else, including your friends.

Once I would have said that's your choice. These days, I would say that if you don't help stop them, you are part of the problem. Think about that, I'm sure you really don't want to help them--but that's the side you are playing on when you don't fight them. If you don't fight them, they've already beaten you, and worse, co-opted you to their team.

Incidentally, how did you creep into Lake Sylvia?? I show about 3' of water by Burnham point (where you turn south to enter from the top of the "lake"). Looks like a place for small craft or rock-hoppers with all the deeper channels into it conveniently blocked by low bridges.
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Old 16-01-2007, 12:29   #28
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hellosailor,

You can take seven feet into Lake Sylvia even at low water. Stick close to the left side going in, about ten feet off the wall or close to boats if they're tied up there. Once you get to the end of the channel and before the lake opens out, cross to the other side and enter the lake from this side. You can anchor anywhere except in the middle near the entrance.

As for being part of the problem, I just ignore the authorities. I listen to what they have to say but I don't move. If they want to give me a ticket I'll ignore that too. (Just don't admit you have a driver's license, give them some other form of id). It is a waste of time discussing the issue with them. They have their orders and are doing their job. Some are more diligent than really necessary but for the most part they are fairly polite.

I guess the proper arena for resolving this matter is in the courts or before some tribunal but, having spent a lot of my working life before those, I don't wish to waste my time or put up with the polite b.s. Too often it's the party with the deepest pockets that triumphs. I'd rather go sailing. I guess that leaves it up to you hellosailor, you and Don Quixote.
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Old 16-01-2007, 14:06   #29
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Chuckr: Reading your post was tough. I really sympathize with the way things are going down there. It's just amazing that a 40' Jenneau DS is not good enough anymore down there. You have a fabulous boat. It's just astounding what is happening in your area.

I try to compare NYC to Miami. There is little to no dockage in NYC, but as you move outside of it, the amount of dockage increases (there is also no anchoring right around Manhattan).

Is it a possibility that people want that waterfront for their next condo or hi-rise and are simply out-bidding marinas or making offers marinas can't refuse? Is it possible that it might just be getting so crowded that there is no longer enough room on the waterfront anymore for the regular guy to be there? It seems this happened a long time ago in NYC. They preserved a few places - 79th street boat basin, a couple of little areas where you can pay big BIG $$ to dock, etc... but, no normal marinas, and not enough space to serve the population for sure.

Maybe it's just getting too crowded? Just a thought. I could be off, but just a thought.
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Old 16-01-2007, 14:09   #30
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Anchoring

That great CBC philosopher Arthur Black summed it up well. He said that when people who are happy with their lives , see someone with a good thing going say" Great, more power to you." Jealousy is the exclusive domain of those who know inside that they have made a total screwup of their own lives and thus can't stand to see someone enjoying life more than they. People who have dedicated their entire lives to the belief that aquiring more money is the key to happiness, can't stand to see the theories that they have become enslaved by, so clearly and dramatically proven false. When reality proves the theory that they have allowed to govern their lives is proven false, they demand that authority enforce their theory.
It's a throwback to puritanism, so accurately described as the terrible , nagging fear that someone, somewhere is having a good time. Having a good time without money is total culture shock to them. It cannot be allowed.
If we follow their attitude to it's logical conclusion, we will find the most miserable person on the planet , then lower everone else to that level, and all will then be fair.
Better for all of us to give the politics of jealousy the bums rush and the contempt it deserves .
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