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Simi 60 · 19-10-2018, 13:22

I have a list of things I need to do on the boat to keep her sound and in a safe working condition and when they are done I start again.

Flags are not on that list.
Plus we have nothing to run one from.

**carstenb** · 19-10-2018, 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

At sea there are rules, and flying the flag of the registration country as well as the courtesy flag from dawn till dusk is compulsory.

This is part of seamanship and also a tradition.

The flags have also a legal meaning. The country of registration flag declares the vessel as territory of this country, where the laws are applicable and the courtesy flag declares, that the captain and crew recognizes and declares to respect the local laws of the guest country on board during the stay.

This is correct.

I can only agree completely with the seamanship and tradition mentioned.

I looked around our anchorage on Ua Pou this morning. six boats (not counting ours). A swedish boat had a flag up. The two French didn't, nor did the canadian nor the Aussie. The british/spanish boat hasn't shown anything

sad

**JPA Cate** · 19-10-2018, 13:40

I'm realizing I should have explained how it happened that I, someone cruising for a very long time, who should know how to provision her boat, managed to get such poor flags. Used to be, I got them from West Marine, usually on sale. They survived for roughly one year. Then along came Internet shopping, and, about a month before our National Holiday called Memorial Day, we ordered online, a half a dozen flags from the most reasonable supplier. It was a case of not realizing that what I ordered was legal, but not a proper US flag. The material is a bad joke, and they are not the proper size.

So, I started a thread here, http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...gs-196585.html, and thanks to help from a number of members here, I think I have the solution for me.

Most people don't cruise internationally, but one can make most flags fairly easily, even if they are not available for sale.

When we first started out, most cruisers flew their national flags, as we are required to do by the places we visit, along with the appropriate courtesy flags. We dress ship for major public holidays, sometimes. I am surprised that Carsten and Vinni have seen a number of flagless boats. Y'all might do some detective work and see if they are missing for similar reasons, or varying.

Ann

**TrentePieds** · 19-10-2018, 13:43

hm… A piddling correction for the sake of accuracy: The swallow-tailed Danish flag, correctly called a "splitflag", is reserved for use by the Royal House, the Military and sundry Government Agencies.

The flag flown by the Military has a darker red colour than do other flags, allegedly to conceal the colour of blood. When worn by a man-o-war that, darker, flag is called an "Orlogsflag"

The flag worn by the merchant marine is a "stutflag", i.e. a conventional rectangular flag, and is called a "koffardiflag"

However, by "Kongelig Forordning" (Royal Decree) a very few organizations are authorized to fly a DEFACED Splitflag. Among these is the Royal Danish Yacht Club which sports three stars in the canton.

Carsten's illustration - if that's a picture of the flag he wears - indicates that he is a member of that yacht club.

However, Danes generally do not get too hung up on the minutiae of flag etiquette and when in doubt tend to err on the side of modesty and consideration of others' sensibilities.

TP

**carstenb** · 19-10-2018, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I guess part of the difference is that in the USA you swear allegiance to “the flag”. Thus, the flag becomes the centre of what it means to be from there. In many other countries the allegiance is to the monarch or the republic, and the flag is just a secondary symbol.

For those who can’t understand what the issues are with flying the Stars and Stripes all over, I guess that one is reflected in the hoo-hah recently about the confederate flag being flown in public places. One person’s pride in their country of origin is another person’s grievance or perceived threat.

That’s why I like having an ensign rather than a national flag on the back of the boat.

Re: dipping, I didn’t know that other nations dipped to the Royal Navy. But anyone may dip as a recognition, and the navy ship used to respond. I’ve only done it once at sea (I suspect they don’t bother in inshore waters). If you dip your ensign to a navy ship you would immediately see a rush of crew to the stern dipping their own ensign. I don’t know if this is still the case.

We've dipped our colors to both Danish and American warships - they promptly dipped theirs in reply

**carstenb** · 19-10-2018, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

hm… A piddling correction for the sake of accuracy: The swallow-tailed Danish flag, correctly called a "splitflag", is reserved for use by the Royal House, the Military and sundry Government Agencies.

The flag flown by the Military has a darker red colour than do other flags, allegedly to conceal the colour of blood. When worn by a man-o-war that, darker, flag is called an "Orlogsflag"

The flag worn by the merchant marine is a "stutflag", i.e. a conventional rectangular flag, and is called a "koffardiflag"

However, by "Kongelig Forordning" (Royal Decree) a very few organizations are authorized to fly a DEFACED Splitflag. Among these is the Royal Danish Yacht Club which sports three stars in the canton.

Carsten's illustration - if that's a picture of the flag he wears - indicates that he is a member of that yacht club.

However, Danes generally do not get too hung up on the minutiae of flag etiquette and when in doubt tend to err on the side of modesty and consideration of others' sensibilities.

TP

Indeed - you are correct, although I've found that most Danish sailors are quite aware of proper flag etiquette and adhere to it (we do - but then we're also very careful to always fly the correct courtesy flags etc).
I once lay at a dock alongside a largish motorboat flying a Danish flag with other types of stars on it. When I asked what flag it was the owner replied that it was a Danish "Kontraadmiral" (rear Admiral) flag. Curiosity got the better of me and I asked where he had gotten that and why he was flying it and he noted that it was his flag - he was a retired Kontraadmiral and it was customary for admirals to take their flag with them when they retired, and also customary for them to fly the flag on whatever boat they happened to own.
duhhhh

Juho · 19-10-2018, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exile

Must mean that every day is special & important in the US, and when I'm out sailing my boat!

I should add that in boats the international rule of always flying a flag applies in Finland too. The flag can be either the national flag or a sailing club flag (that is actually a but older than the national flag). In Finland people of the Åland province may fly also the local Åland flag. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flags_of_Finland)

fxykty · 19-10-2018, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by carstenb

We've dipped our colors to both Danish and American warships - they promptly dipped theirs in reply

How does one dip one’s ensign if it’s permanently attached to a flag staff on our stern? Do we unfix the flag staff, dip it, then refix it?

Juho · 19-10-2018, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

At sea there are rules, and flying the flag of the registration country as well as the courtesy flag from dawn till dusk is compulsory.

I should have noted in my message that it referred to the landlubber flags.

**carstenb** · 19-10-2018, 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxykty

How does one dip one’s ensign if it’s permanently attached to a flag staff on our stern? Do we unfix the flag staff, dip it, then refix it?

The proper way is to take the staff out of it's holder, hold the staff (and flag ) upright, then dip the staff (and flag) to horizontal and then back to upright.

Juho · 19-10-2018, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by carstenb

We fly the swallow-tail flag, which is also the Royal flag and the flag of the armed forces.

Be careful with that one. It looks like a war flag. I might think that Denmark has declared a war.

**Dockhead** · 19-10-2018, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Yes, from a European point of view it's a bit weird to see national flags all over the place, and particularly when we see images of American suburbs with their flags. In the UK it's illegal to fly the national flag, unless you're the Queen. If your vessel is registered then there's an ensign to fly in the daylight hours. In New Zealand you have a different ensign, but only if you're registered as a New Zealand ship, which is $1000+ for five years and so many boats don't bother. Owning a boat over here is like owning a pair of shoes -- there's no paperwork, no registration unless you want to go overseas (and of course "overseas" is at least a week's journey from here)

Illegal in the UK? I don't think so. You see the Union Jack displayed quite a bit on people's houses around here.

And you should go to Scandinavia some time! Every Swedish island house has a tall flag staff and a great big Swedish flag flying! Finland is exactly the same.

I really don't think that Americans are unique in this.

In Europe, you hardly ever see a boat NOT flying its proper ensign. Only the French have an odd habit of displaying a very tiny French flag, handkerchief size, tied to the backstay. And a certain number of boats -- Dutch, German, Swedish -- fly jumbo oversized ensigns, a prominent display of national pride, I guess.

**Dockhead** · 19-10-2018, 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by carstenb

We've dipped our colors to both Danish and American warships - they promptly dipped theirs in reply

I sailed past some American aircraft carrier anchored at Spithead, last year.

It was right in my way passing from Cowes to Portsmouth. I was single handed. I didn't get close enough to dip my colours, before they sent out a giant black RIB full of heavily armed marines to chase me off. The RIB had no ensign, and the marines were not friendly.

So much for flag etiquette!