Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-04-2013, 11:49   #31
Registered User
 
OldFrog75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Boat: Club Sailor; various
Posts: 922
Re: Who has right of way?

If it were me I would ask myself, which direction is the wind coming from and which side of the boat would the main be on if it were up. (I would disregard the possibility of sailing by the lee).

In this case I would consider myself on a starboard tack and the normal port/starboard and windward/leeward rules would apply.
__________________

__________________
OldFrog75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 11:52   #32
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 14,192
Re: Who has right of way?

Just to be clear. I don't read the rule book just to force my way through traffic. I read it so that I know what others expect me to do.

I too know how hard it is to pole from one side to the other and usually give way to someone poled out.

You don't know and can't tell if someone is sailing a bit by the lee when they are poled out and their wind might be a little shifty so I give them plenty of room and I would hope they would do the same for me.

kind regards,
__________________

__________________
John
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 05:19   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Catalina 25' (1970)
Posts: 21
Re: Who has right of way?

Guys, please don't just give way to everything. I drive boats commercially within one of the biggest ports on the east coast. I follow colregs rules and yield to boats as needed. I don't want the awkward silence when I'm idling in a channel waiting for you to wait for me to pass by because you have your sails up and are crossing me.

Also, you should have a VHF and use it to talk to other vessels that you might have problems with (Channel 13 is ship to ship (where you should be talking and listening), Channel 9 is land based services, and 16 is hailing and emergency)
__________________
omgitsgela is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 07:44   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,016
Images: 4
Ya. We are the people in that sailboat. Directly in front of you is a rudder. Might look like a steering wheel. Turn your power boat a few degrees as you approach. Go behind us. No problem. No heart attack.
__________________
daddle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 08:10   #35
Registered User
 
BigBoater917's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Boat: 1973 Jacobsen 110'
Posts: 112
Re: Who has right of way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
Ya. We are the people in that sailboat. Directly in front of you is a rudder. Might look like a steering wheel. Turn your power boat a few degrees as you approach. Go behind us. No problem. No heart attack.
What if you don't have either? ;-) I've maneuvered according to COLREGS poet of times only to have the other guy panic and do the wrong thing. I've come to expect it from a good portion of the pleasure boats out there.
__________________
BigBoater917 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 07:45   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New England
Boat: Prairie 29
Posts: 201
Re: Who has right of way?

Two items become apparent in this thread.

1. The assumption that all other vessels will give way to Sailing vessels.

This is WRONG. Deadly Wrong.

2. The statement that as a power driven vessel the solution is: "Turn your power boat a few degrees as you approach. Go behind us" This is dependent on TWO very important things. Can I turn a few degrees away from you? (without putting my deep draft vessel aground, or (more likely) running a risk of a collision with another deep draft vessel?

The operational characteristics of the two vessels involved are SO widespread, it is not fathomable to the yachter how the large vessel handles, and the large vessel is mystified at the 'nautical squirrel' maneuver that most yachters do at close proximity.

Being a sailboater, AND a Commercial Merchant Mariner lets me see both sides of the equation. My 30' sailboat can turn within her own length. I can out maneuver ANY commercial vessel. Anywhere. I can stop, heave to, and veer off so fast it makes my wives head spin. It is no wonder that the commercial mariner is mystified when a sailing vessel tacks, gybes or heads down right under our bows. The perception is always "I have the right of way" "They will avoid me." "I am a sailboat." This is WRONG.

The rules clearly state: Rule 9 (b) A vessel under 20 meters shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway.

NOTE the total absence of mentioning any class of vessels? Sailboats are included in this. It doesn't say "except sailboats". This means ALL vessels under 20 meters get out of the way! If you are in a channel, and a larger vessel is there, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROTECTED STATUS.

How about Rule 9 (a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies to starboard as is safe and practical.

Keeping to the right when IN a channel? Gee, how I wish this was done. There is a running joke in the industry. Often heard on the radio: "Watch out, there's a 'deep draft' sailboat in the middle of the channel"...... Invariably, the dawdling sailboat (out of indifference, unfamialiarity or just ignorance) is blissfully unaware that they are exactly where I have to be to make a turn, a corner, or set up for a meeting situation with another deep draft unit.

Now for the interesting part. The perception of channel, and who can operate 'outside' the channel is up for debate. BUT, in this day and age, when I am pushing 4.2MILLION gallons of petroleum I am certainly not going to opt for the 'go outside a channel' just because some small vessel is ignorant of the operational characteristics of MY vessel or the 'whole picture' regarding other navigation information.
__________________
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 08:05   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New England
Boat: Prairie 29
Posts: 201
Re: Who has right of way?

Think of your vessel this way. It is a highly maneuverable vessel. The large vessel is cumbersome. The margin between collision is only about 150'. The widest any vessel is, is around 120' (excepting a few large crude carriers, and aircraft carriers) So, it is obvious that you only have to 'NOT be' in a 150' wide swath in front of a ship. In a miles wide ocean how difficult is that? (apparently it IS difficult) Why?

As written in the rules regarding lookout, and assessing risk of collision, Large vessels and tugs and tows must be given extra space. Why?

This is because although they look like they are NOT moving it is deceiving on the water, and speed is difficult to judge.

What is NOT difficult to judge is relative bearing change (or lack thereof) BUT it takes practice. This can be done in rough weather, calm weather and in darkness.

HOW it is done is another matter. I am amazed at how many people 'think' they know how to ascertain constant bearing, But actually are not fully aware of how to do it. Of course no one wants to hear that they are deficient in their seamanship skills. But that deficiency KILLS. This topic wouldn't be here if it weren't an issue.

Getting back to Sabbaticals original post: Between two vessels, observing a closing constant bearing, decreasing range indicates a risk of collision exists. Then is is time to DO something. There is no mystery. Alter course or speed. It's not rocket science. If you have to justify "should I alter" you have just put Your, Your family, Your guests lives in danger.

As some have said, just get out of the way. There is a time and a place to 'stand on.' There is a time and place to 'give way'. If you make adjustments early enough, neither stand on or give way even enter into the conversation. The issue is determining 'Is there an issue.'

Talk to your fellow boaters. Educate them that the old (pretend) rule that everyone is SO fond of quoting: 'Sailboats have the 'right of way'' does not actually exist. There are 3 rules that specifically state sailing vessels DO NOT have the right of way. Narrow channels, Overtaking, and after risk of collision has been determined, NO one has the 'right of way.'
__________________
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 08:32   #38
Zil
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 239
Re: Who has right of way?

Here lies the body of George O'Day.
He sank maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right as he sailed along,
But he is just as dead as if he were wrong.
__________________
Zil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 09:44   #39
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Who has right of way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Two items become apparent in this thread.

1. The assumption that all other vessels will give way to Sailing vessels.

This is WRONG. Deadly Wrong.

2. The statement that as a power driven vessel the solution is: "Turn your power boat a few degrees as you approach. Go behind us" This is dependent on TWO very important things. Can I turn a few degrees away from you? (without putting my deep draft vessel aground, or (more likely) running a risk of a collision with another deep draft vessel?

The operational characteristics of the two vessels involved are SO widespread, it is not fathomable to the yachter how the large vessel handles, and the large vessel is mystified at the 'nautical squirrel' maneuver that most yachters do at close proximity.

Being a sailboater, AND a Commercial Merchant Mariner lets me see both sides of the equation. My 30' sailboat can turn within her own length. I can out maneuver ANY commercial vessel. Anywhere. I can stop, heave to, and veer off so fast it makes my wives head spin. It is no wonder that the commercial mariner is mystified when a sailing vessel tacks, gybes or heads down right under our bows. The perception is always "I have the right of way" "They will avoid me." "I am a sailboat." This is WRONG.

The rules clearly state: Rule 9 (b) A vessel under 20 meters shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway.

NOTE the total absence of mentioning any class of vessels? Sailboats are included in this. It doesn't say "except sailboats". This means ALL vessels under 20 meters get out of the way! If you are in a channel, and a larger vessel is there, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROTECTED STATUS.

How about Rule 9 (a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies to starboard as is safe and practical.

Keeping to the right when IN a channel? Gee, how I wish this was done. There is a running joke in the industry. Often heard on the radio: "Watch out, there's a 'deep draft' sailboat in the middle of the channel"...... Invariably, the dawdling sailboat (out of indifference, unfamialiarity or just ignorance) is blissfully unaware that they are exactly where I have to be to make a turn, a corner, or set up for a meeting situation with another deep draft unit.

Now for the interesting part. The perception of channel, and who can operate 'outside' the channel is up for debate. BUT, in this day and age, when I am pushing 4.2MILLION gallons of petroleum I am certainly not going to opt for the 'go outside a channel' just because some small vessel is ignorant of the operational characteristics of MY vessel or the 'whole picture' regarding other navigation information.

It's a case of not seeing the forest for the trees. The over-arching principle is "do everything possible to avoid a collision" (my wording, I didn't stop to look it up). If no one has anywhere to go then choosing the right speed is one's only option, but anyone who thinks that 1) because they're a sailboat they have the right of way and/or 2) the other boat "should" do something and therefore the sailboat isn't going to budge on principle --

is a menace to everyone.

Maritime judges will very nearly always find both parties at fault, even if one of the vessels is only found to be at fault 1%.

There may be an exception. I suspect this story isn't true, or at least parts of it (I doubt the sailors spent several weeks in jail over a sunken vessel) ... but she found it and sent it to me:

RulesMaster - Cow falls from sky, sinks boat
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 09:53   #40
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,948
Images: 6
Re: Who has right of way?

Pet peeve of mine. NOBODY has "right of way." There is no "right of way." "Right of way" is a concept that people carry over from driving. In the nautical world, it does not exist!

There is a "stand on" vessel and there is a "give way" vessel. Just because you are the "stand on" vessel, that does NOT mean that you have the "right of way." All it means is that should expect the other vessel to give way, but whether it does or not, you are STILL obligated to do everything possible to avoid a collision.

YOU'RE NOT DRIVING A CAR!
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 09:54   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pickering Ontario
Boat: 1995 hunter 430
Posts: 328
Re: Who has right of way?

I also give everyone the right of way.......(it is the best way)...and besides my wife is also yelling at me to give the right of way........I have not been out yet where anyone gives me any right of way, I feel I am a pushover..........I wish I had a cannon sometimes........................I mean I am the give way vessel
__________________
Navicula is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:09   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New England
Boat: Prairie 29
Posts: 201
Re: Who has right of way?

The issue is: How to get this info OUT into the world of boaters.

Some states have made 'mandatory safe boaters courses' in an effort to make this clear. But, having been in the Marine Industry for over 40 years, I continue to see, hear and deal with people who are making bad decisions. The concept of the Colregs is very dry, convoluted and hard to get by just reading. It must be explained to be understood. Who can do this? Who will organize it? Who will pay attention?

This is like a drivers license. Just answering a couple questions does NOT make a safe driver. When the tires leave the pavement it is too late to try to figure out how to deal with the issues. Same goes for Boating. We depend upon a certain level of competence when operating. Our lives depend on it. Our jobs depend on it.
__________________
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:42   #43
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Who has right of way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Pet peeve of mine. NOBODY has "right of way." There is no "right of way." "Right of way" is a concept that people carry over from driving. In the nautical world, it does not exist!

There is a "stand on" vessel and there is a "give way" vessel. Just because you are the "stand on" vessel, that does NOT mean that you have the "right of way." All it means is that should expect the other vessel to give way, but whether it does or not, you are STILL obligated to do everything possible to avoid a collision.

YOU'RE NOT DRIVING A CAR!

Yes, but I chose my words carefully. anyone who uses "stand on" and "give way" probably understands more than that. I've heard "right of way" too many times, including from the idiot whose autopilot sudenly turned 90 to port (who knew autopilots still require someone at the helm? Not him!) while gaining on us. He nearly tore my rig down with his anchor as his boat left bottom paint on the bottom of my outward-sloping stern. I'd only gotten the boat recently, and the previous owner had put on shroud and stay covers. The aft starboard stay cover (split backstay) was all chewed up by his anchor roller but the anchor rolled over the cover and didn't hook us. Thank goodness!

As he passed, he woke up (literally -- he had been sitting against the cabin side, well away from the helm and asleep) and yelled "I was on course! I had the (wait for it ...)

RIGHT OF WAY!!!"

(And he was only on course if he had suddenly decided to sail by himself to Davis Island instead of East to the destination the rest of the club was headed for.)

Someone was on our cabintop taking pictures of the other boat at the time. That boat seemed to be acting as if he thought he was racing against us or something (way too close as he gained on us), but no -- he was just asleep.

Two weeks later friands and I were taking my boat out the channel into the small bay, arguably the most crowded part of that bay. I looked behind me, and there was the same bozo, on autopilot before he was even through all the channel makers, standing on the cabin top untangling a big pile of lines, and not even aware that he was gaining on my stern. We just steered off and he powered on by, never looking up and never knowing that he could have hit us AGAIN. We were doing about 4k so he was probably acting this way at about 5k.

The feloow taking pictures was looking at things like lighting and composition and didn't notice the little detail of the empty helm and the guy asleep in the cockpit until he looked at his pictures in detail later.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:49   #44
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Who has right of way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
The issue is: How to get this info OUT into the world of boaters.

Some states have made 'mandatory safe boaters courses' in an effort to make this clear. But, having been in the Marine Industry for over 40 years, I continue to see, hear and deal with people who are making bad decisions. The concept of the Colregs is very dry, convoluted and hard to get by just reading. It must be explained to be understood. Who can do this? Who will organize it? Who will pay attention?

This is like a drivers license. Just answering a couple questions does NOT make a safe driver. When the tires leave the pavement it is too late to try to figure out how to deal with the issues. Same goes for Boating. We depend upon a certain level of competence when operating. Our lives depend on it. Our jobs depend on it.

All I had to do was take a one-night Coast Guard Auxiliary class for $25. They explained it all simply and well. There is no "right of way," "stand on" and "give way" are terms used to explain which is the more maneuvarable vessel, which gets to the crucial point -- being "stand on" (what many think of as "right of way") is only a guideline, based on which boat is more maneuverable. It doesn't mean "stand your ground!"

Importantly, everyone has to do whatever is necessary, including a drastic change in course, if necessary to avoid a collision. Not only do you not do that on a highway -- you can't. You can't sudddenly tack or gybe on a highway and drive north in the southbound lane because it will create more problems than it solves -- but it's exactly what's required on the water if that's what will avoid an accident. Even if the other person is acting like a clueless idiot.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 17:39   #45
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post

All I had to do was take a one-night Coast Guard Auxiliary class for $25. They explained it all simply and well. There is no "right of way," "stand on" and "give way" are terms used to explain which is the more maneuvarable vessel, which gets to the crucial point -- being "stand on" (what many think of as "right of way") is only a guideline, based on which boat is more maneuverable. It doesn't mean "stand your ground!"

Importantly, everyone has to do whatever is necessary, including a drastic change in course, if necessary to avoid a collision. Not only do you not do that on a highway -- you can't. You can't sudddenly tack or gybe on a highway and drive north in the southbound lane because it will create more problems than it solves -- but it's exactly what's required on the water if that's what will avoid an accident. Even if the other person is acting like a clueless idiot.
This is an over simplification. " stand on " has nothing to do with manoeuvrability . under COLREGS the stand on vessel is required to maintain speed and direction , unless its is completely clear that the give way vessel is not taking appropriate action, only then, does the stand on vessel attempt to avoid collision.

stand On , does actually mean stand your ground. But only up to a point. ( and that point is clearly defined)

In the case of a small boat meeting a large vessel, there is no doubt that application of the COLREGS can lead to small boats as the stand on vessel putting themselves in a dangerous position.

My modification that I teach is " do not stand on into danger


View the Alendar Von Humbolt incident to see what's meant

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.