Which Flag?

[Alan Wheeler]

Micheal, I have a Brother inlaw living in Austria.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

David, I am reading the rules from my reference book for Yacht Master course, which is British. Does anyone know if British Fag Etiquette differs from American??
Also if there is a different Diver down flag for the USA, can someone desrcibe that for me please.
I have made some "subtle" changes to the sticky :-)

American (PADI) Dive flag


Dive Flag ("A" - Alpha)


[


1 - National Ensign (example: Canada). Always hoisted Aft. Sailboats without stern staff, should fly the Ensign from the leech of the aftermost sail (about 2/3 up), but, in former days, most sailors would use the backstay instead, and fly it lower. - I would disagree and say nowadays most yachts would use the backstay (if not using a stern staff)
2 - Club Burgee (example: Royal Canadian Yacht Club, Canada). On sailboats, on top of the foremost mast. - I would add either on the opposite cross tree (to the Courtesy flag).
4 - Signal Flags (example Q : My vessel is healthy and I request free practique). Always below or replacing 2
X - Foreign National Ensign (example: United Kingdom). When abroad. Also called Courtesy Flag. The Civil Ensign of the country's waters you are on.

"Borrowed" (and slightly edited!) from this site.........

Flag Position & Etiquette

[hellosailor]

David-
AFAIK the "third repeater" is not a blue and white flag. It is a pennant (a triangle, not a rectangle)

and a white triangle with a horizontal black stripe set in the middle, at that.

The "owner absent, guest in charge" flag is cut to the same pattern as the US "Diver Down" flag. That is, a square flag (not a triangle) with a diagonal stripe across it. Look at the "M" flag, pretend there is only a slash not an "X" across it.


Wheels-
The "diver down" flag is red with a white stripe on it; I see that's been posted by now. The "owner absent, guest in charge" flag is navy blue with a white stripe. Anyone who can read it would not confuse it with any type of unmanned/uncommanded vessel, it very much means someone IS aboard and in charge, and they simply are not they owner.

If I was delivering someone else's boat, that probably would be in order--since I wasn't the owner, nor the guest, but it would still tell people I met en route "Dave's not here man!" [quoting a movie].


Sometimes I have no idea what planet Chapman's was written on. If they really say that the yacht ensign "is Old Glory" then they need a copy editor. The "yacht ensign" has a fouled anchor surrounded by 13 stars in the union (the blue corner filed) while "Old Glory" means the standard national flag, which only recently has 50 stars. Technically, any US national flag could be called "Old Glory", or perhaps, only the battle flag that line refers to should be called by that name. (The current flag is newer, IIRC.)

[GreyRaven]

That is fine by me but I expect Site Admin to catch the detractors as well, before we have to defend ourselves from attacks of this kind. This is an international forum and not “owned” by any one country.

I think it is important to point this out to some of the less enlightened members, so that there is no misunderstanding.

We all have a right to state our views.

[GreyRaven]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

Micheal, I have a Brother inlaw living in Austria.

Good to know. Does he sail?

Please understand that it was not my intention to be disrespectful to the forum. I also do not want to ferment trouble where none exists. But I will not accept being trashed because I am a “foreigner “. I assume that you know that I’m not a “Troll”. I have stated my truth to the best of my ability and expect others to respect that.

Life and sailing do not begin and end in the United States of America.

It is a very big planet.

[Pblais]

A US documented boat and FCC station licenses renews without fee for US citizens and are not legal for non US citizens to hold. You have to pay a holding company to register a boat where you are not a citizen. It means your own name can not be used as the owner if you are not US citizen.

The perception of a screwy registration is more apt to be a problem with officials. They really don't care where your boat is registered if it is a legal registration. How local people see you is more apt to be a reflection of how you behave rather than your flag. Being a jerk won't matter what flag you fly. A USCG documentation certificate will always prove proper ownership any place on the globe. While there may be perceptions about your flag you fly as your own there will never be a perception that the documentation papers are not genuine.

I would not pay any fees to register a boat not from your own country with the idea that the perception may be any better. Tax loop holes aside it's a dumb idea. As far as avoiding taxes goes if you never come home you will never have a tax problem. If you bring you boat back to your home country there may be issues left to be resolved. Being a hostage to a foreign holding company is no great deal either. Once you start paying you can't ever let go. They own you as long as you own the boat. No one cares what you believe.

Flying a US Ensign is always located at the highest place of honer not the highest vertical location. The aft gaff is the highest place of honor on all US vessels.

[David M]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

David-
AFAIK the "third repeater" is not a blue and white flag. It is a pennant (a triangle, not a rectangle)

and a white triangle with a horizontal black stripe set in the middle, at that.

I never described the Third Repeater. I don't understand how you thought I described the wrong flag. I have known what the Third Repeater looks like since I was 12 years old.

[Fishman]

Thanks guys for completely pulverising my original thread! But it makes for fairly interesting reading...I did not realize that you guys had so much spare time. And the yankees on this forum are far too sensitive! My original question was about a flag of convenience: I wish to register my cat cheaply for 3-5 years, there won't be major tax consequences and whilst I have the choice, I might as well get the flag which most 3rd world locals like as well. This has nothing to do with how one treats the locals or how patriotic you are: Its about having a user friendly flag i.e. South African flagged yachts pay way more for a cruise permit than UK flagged yachts in US waters OR Can a US flagged yacht visit Cuba? And trust me, in certain countries the "wrong" flag WILL attract unnecessary attention, and as I've mentioned above you can be charged more $$ for your permit. Those of you who have sailed around the world RECENTLY (and did NOT avoid so-called troublesome areas), I would love to hear your input. I don't want to have avoid certain countries because of this.
Thanks
Fishy

[David M]

I would imagine that the difference in what you would pay between different countries of registry is a tiny fraction of the total cost of cruising. Given the tiny differences in cost, go with whatever country is going to be the most beneficial for you.

As far as cruising to Cuba...US citizens are not allowed to visit Cuba. Although many have done it and I disagree with the policy, it's still illegal and I don't think arguing with the State Department will get a US citizen very far.

Originally Posted by Fishman

I might as well get the flag which most 3rd world locals like as well.

You will still need to show them your passport which will identify you as a US citizen. If they don't like US citizens then it will be irrelevant what country your vessel is documented in.

[hellosailor]

David-
I mentioned the "owner absent guest..." flag and you quoted that, going on to say "The third repeater is more commonly used to let others know"

In the US at least, that can be read to mean you are referring to the subject you have quoted--the flag I'm discussing--rather than a new subject. As I (apparently mis)read your message, you were referring to the flag I mentioned AS the third repeater. To the casual reader, there's no distinction to indicate you're talking about a totally different flag. At least, on this side of the pond.<G>

Bear in mind, we still refer to "the King's English" and always will, while "the Queen's English" is spoken on the other shore--at least for now.

Fishy-
If you can refer to "Yanks" you can't refer to us as too sensitive, when you are considering impersonating one of us by flagging your vessel here. When all is said and done--a flag belongs to those who live under it, here. In most of the rest of the world, it is quite the opposite and those who live under it belong to that flag (sovereign).

Now, if you really want to come back on topic, why not tell you what your legal citizenship(s) is/are and discuss your choice of flags from that mundane perspective, versus starting a dummy corporation and a flag of convenience? And, incidentally, if the corporation serves no other bonafide purpose? Some authorities will not recognize it. That can be a dangerous game for the novice player.

[Pblais]

I would imagine that the difference in what you would pay between different countries of registry is a tiny fraction of the total cost of cruising. Given the tiny differences in cost, go with whatever country is going to be the most beneficial for you.

I'm not clear how any another country can be "beneficial" one way or another. To think some how that officials will treat you better or even that they will treat you worse is pretty poor logic. How locals might perceive you may be an issue. They really don't care about your documents. You don't have to fly your own country of registartion flag if you don't want to. You fly the host country flag however.

When dealing with officials they really don't care where you come from they just want the proper paperwork. When registering with a foreign country you pay every single year. Foreign registration is not a tiny fraction since it is every year. For the US you only ever pay one time. Taxes OTOH, have little to do with registration.

[GordMay]

This would be the "owner absent" flag, I'd fly, were I professional crew, in that circumstance. Subtly different from the "official" version.

[David M]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

David-
I mentioned the "owner absent guest..." flag and you quoted that, going on to say "The third repeater is more commonly used to let others know"

In the US at least, that can be read to mean you are referring to the subject you have quoted--the flag I'm discussing--rather than a new subject. As I (apparently mis)read your message, you were referring to the flag I mentioned AS the third repeater. To the casual reader, there's no distinction to indicate you're talking about a totally different flag. At least, on this side of the pond.<G>

Bear in mind, we still refer to "the King's English" and always will, while "the Queen's English" is spoken on the other shore--at least for now.

Fishy-
If you can refer to "Yanks" you can't refer to us as too sensitive, when you are considering impersonating one of us by flagging your vessel here. When all is said and done--a flag belongs to those who live under it, here. In most of the rest of the world, it is quite the opposite and those who live under it belong to that flag (sovereign).

Now, if you really want to come back on topic, why not tell you what your legal citizenship(s) is/are and discuss your choice of flags from that mundane perspective, versus starting a dummy corporation and a flag of convenience? And, incidentally, if the corporation serves no other bonafide purpose? Some authorities will not recognize it. That can be a dangerous game for the novice player.

No problem Hello Sailor and no apology necessary. English is a difficult language no matters whose English we are talking about.

Cheers! :cubalibre

David

[David M]

Originally Posted by GordMay

This would be the "owner absent" flag, I'd fly, were I professional crew, in that circumstance. Subtly different from the "official" version.

Thats funny because the Third Repeater (the captain is not aboard) is also informally called the "party flag".

[dana-tenacity]

Originally Posted by Pblais

To think some how that officials will treat you better or even that they will treat you worse is pretty poor logic.
When dealing with officials they really don't care where you come from they just want the proper paperwork.

I beg to disagree. we have friends here in NZ from Colombia. Since he worked for an airline they were able to fly home to Cartagena for their annual holidays. This meant passing through Miami. For eight years they were searched and interrogated every time. Then they got NZ passports and were waved through.