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Old 29-04-2013, 13:21   #16
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

Whilst we await OP's return! - just curious on the USCG documentation, I am guessing that as only available for US citizens that there is no actual residency requirement............or do you actually need to also be a resident and supply a US address (i.e. if you were a US Citizen and simply lived and worked permanently in Timbucktoo - would you be able to use your Timbucktoo address! for your USCG registered / US flagged boat or have to use a US address?). Just curious.
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Old 29-04-2013, 14:38   #17
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Whilst we await OP's return! - just curious on the USCG documentation, I am guessing that as only available for US citizens that there is no actual residency requirement............or do you actually need to also be a resident and supply a US address (i.e. if you were a US Citizen and simply lived and worked permanently in Timbucktoo - would you be able to use your Timbucktoo address! for your USCG registered / US flagged boat or have to use a US address?). Just curious.
You are supposed to be a US citizen for a documented boat and if you register it in a corporation then it is supposed to be US owned and the CG wants proof. However there are schill owners available for a price and this is a known fact. You can get a US address through any UPS store and possibly the Post office. It has been posted here many times about people cruising only on a state registered vessel. 50 states plus territories plus the federal gov. Makes your head spin.
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Old 29-04-2013, 14:51   #18
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

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Originally Posted by water babe View Post
We were thinking somewhere outside the states.
Why? Are you on the run from the US, trying to dodge the IRS, custody battle with ex wife/husband, joining the witness protection program, putting a megayacht into an offshore charter company to avoid taxes, have black helicopters hovering over your house and need to hide out from the CIA mind control agents?

If you are US citizens it is generally cheaper, easier, less paperwork to just do a USCG documentation......... unless you fall into one of the above categories or something similar.
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:27   #19
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You are supposed to be a US citizen for a documented boat and if you register it in a corporation then it is supposed to be US owned and the CG wants proof. However there are schill owners available for a price and this is a known fact. You can get a US address through any UPS store and possibly the Post office. It has been posted here many times about people cruising only on a state registered vessel. 50 states plus territories plus the federal gov. Makes your head spin.
Are you sure? So Chrysler corp. can't register a boat now that it is Italian owned? I find that pretty hard to believe...
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:30   #20
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

Here's what the ISCG says:

Quote:
HOW DO I ESTABLISH U.S. CITIZENSHIP?
Citizenship is established by completion of form CG-1258. In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes. Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens. In addition, at least 75% of the stock must be vested in U.S. citizens for a coastwise or fisheries endorsement.
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:39   #21
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Here's what the ISCG says:
Ah, yes. But we're not talking about fishing rights.
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:59   #22
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

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Ah, yes. But we're not talking about fishing rights.
Oh but the fisheries endorsement is "in addition" to basic vessel documentation. Check the USCG website and it seems pretty clear that the control of the corporation owning the vessel must be by US citizens to obtain USCG documentation.
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Old 29-04-2013, 16:06   #23
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Oh but the fisheries endorsement is "in addition" to basic vessel documentation. Check the USCG website and it seems pretty clear that the control of the corporation owning the vessel must be by US citizens to obtain USCG documentation.
It is very clear that there are 4 different endorsements, of which "recreation" is one, and that the 75% of shares held by US citizens is NOT a requirement for recreation endorsement, only for coastwise (trade) and fisheries.

It has always been like this, in almoat every country in the world.
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Old 29-04-2013, 16:28   #24
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

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It is very clear that there are 4 different endorsements, of which "recreation" is one,
That is my understanding. From the USCG web site

"A Certificate of Documentation may be endorsed for fishery, coastwise, registry, or recreation."


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75% of shares held by US citizens is NOT a requirement for recreation endorsement, only for coastwise (trade) and fisheries.
Yes. That is what I was saying. However on the USCG web site it also says.

"The basic requirements for documentation are to demonstrate ownership of the vessel, U.S. citizenship, and eligibility for the endorsement sought."

and

"Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens"

No where have I been able to find a statement that says vessels documented for recreation only are exempt from these requirements.

Let me say for the record this not an area where I claim expertise, just reporting what I have been able to find on the Coast Guard web site. I will readily and happily admit that a non-USA controlled corporation can document a vessel, just have not been able to find anything in writing that says so.
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Old 29-04-2013, 16:48   #25
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
That is my understanding. From the USCG web site

"A Certificate of Documentation may be endorsed for fishery, coastwise, registry, or recreation."




Yes. That is what I was saying. However on the USCG web site it also says.

"The basic requirements for documentation are to demonstrate ownership of the vessel, U.S. citizenship, and eligibility for the endorsement sought."

and

"Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens"

No where have I been able to find a statement that says vessels documented for recreation only are exempt from these requirements.

Let me say for the record this not an area where I claim expertise, just reporting what I have been able to find on the Coast Guard web site. I will readily and happily admit that a non-USA controlled corporation can document a vessel, just have not been able to find anything in writing that says so.
Yes, everything you write is correct. But it is 5 minutes to erect an LLC with US citizens as director, secretary, chairman etc. plus 100% of shares in foreign hands, plus a power of attorney, plus signed but undated letters of resignation from each of the director, secretary, chairman etc. This is standard practice and it creates a perfectly legal "US citizen", except in those cases where it would PROFIT from fishing or trading in the US EEZ, for which it really must benefit US citizens as in human beings.

In Dutch language they make it clear more like a "Dutch citizen" is a human being and a "Dutch entity" which can also be a company, foundation etc. while in the US they keep calling it a "citizen". Must be British leftover

The same goes in almost every country: you can erect a company within 5 minutes in say Cayman Islands, or the UK or Germany etc. In some cases, the costs involved are significant: Jedi was first registered in the BVI's but every year the costs went up and they even bothered me for the weirdest things like utility bills that I don't have. So, we changed over to Dutch registered which is easy for a Dutchman as no company needs to be erected. But it was a long and tough process with the bureaucrats.

Panama looks pretty ideal for registration, but it might be costly too for a retiree with his boat doing nothing that makes them money.

About tax, duty etc.: now that Jedi is Dutch registered doesn't mean that Dutch (EU) duties and VAT etc. are paid. That would only be needed when she would be imported into the Dutch (EU) territory. I can even take it there on temporary import as we are still Dutch, but emigrated a long while ago to nowhere but we stay outside the EU mostly, so would not be people trying to avoid taxes with any construction. Retired live-aboard cruisers can do these things fully legal.
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Old 29-04-2013, 17:00   #26
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

It says this on form CG1258:

Quote:
MEMBER MANAGED LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY
I (WE) CERTIFY THAT ALL MEMBERS OF THIS LLC ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES ELIGIBLE TO DOCUMENT VESSELS WITH
THE ENDORSEMENT(S) SOUGHT IN THEIR OWN RIGHT.
(CLICK ICON TO ATTACH LIST OF ALL MEMBERS)(REQUIRED)
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Old 29-04-2013, 17:06   #27
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

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It says this on form CG1258:
yep. The company must be a real US company in good standing. Which can be 100% Dutch owned.

"Member managed", whatever "member" means, what a strange way to say that but anyway, the management must be US citizens. This is the lawyer and his personnel.

Management is not shareholder. Shareholder is owner; manager is a job.
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Old 29-04-2013, 17:13   #28
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

Jedi, it says right there in the clip I posted that all members of the LLC must be U.S. citizens and each member would be eligible to document the vessel in their own right, which would mean they have to be U.S. citizens.
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Old 29-04-2013, 17:19   #29
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Re: where is the best place to register our boat

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Jedi, it says right there in the clip I posted that all members of the LLC must be U.S. citizens and each member would be eligible to document the vessel in their own right, which would mean they have to be U.S. citizens.
Yes, that is correct.

I own Jedi LLC, but I am not on the board, I'm not employed by it in any function; every employee is a US citizen.

EDIT: just like lots of US citizens work for Chrysler but it is Italian owned (FIAT).
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Old 29-04-2013, 18:25   #30
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Members of an LLC are its shareholders.

This is an easy fix for Chrysler and Jedi and the OP. Set up 2 US companies. The top one owned by anyone. The lower one owned by the top one, which is a US person.
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