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Old 17-06-2014, 02:31   #91
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
No, the COLREGS do not have "much slack" as you say.
The evidence of this thread is against you.

In this thread, there was so much slack that neither skipper, both of whom will tell you they have at least a basic understanding of the colregs, knew what to expect from the other.

Even after discussing it together on the dock, they couldn't agree.
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Old 17-06-2014, 03:02   #92
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by Eco Voyager View Post
That said, let me expand the hypothetical situation.

A very likely situation is a yacht whose motor has failed and must return home to port by sail power alone up a busy narrow channel. If there are lots of boats using the channel under power and the sailing boat is trying to get up the channel into the wind it is very restricted and if the sail boat tried to luff up they could stall and then pay off down wind. Worse still, if they do not tack with speed, a cruising boat might not even successfully complete the tack and could then end up on the rocks. In such a limited channel they do not have room for errors and without an engine I would say that they are restricted in their ability to manoeuvre and all other vessels should keep clear.
I actually tend to agree with you onthis. A sailboat, under sail in a narrow channel may be considered to be restricted in its ability to maneuver. i argued this earlier on in either this or the other thread on this subject.

I still feel that this is true, but of course, if the sailboat wants to claim this status (thereby forcing rule 18 into play), it should be showing the day signal for restricted ability, to wit: Ruel 27(b)2; three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond.

Since the sailboat was not showing these (by own admission) it cannot claim such status
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Old 17-06-2014, 03:07   #93
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Actually, the most interesting part of this discussion is the actual discussion. Some on this thread feel that the difference of opinion is a weakness of the colregs, wanting them to be completely clear and concise, assigning 100% of the blame in every imaginable situation.
What should be clear and I think not accepted by some is that in all cases responsibility is shared and blame is apportioned.

If a conflict ever gets to court, that is what happens.

It is good sense to be gentlemanly

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
IN SUMMARY?

What I have learned here is the same as I learned in dozens of protest committee hearings I attended while skippering IOR boats in Washington and California.

There are many interpretations of complex, poorly written, or incomplete rules that are intended to guide steering and maneuvering of boats. What seems crystal clear to one captain is clearly understood by the other captain to be something quite different.
The difference in race committee hearings is there can only be one winner. There is a plastic trophy at stake for cryin' out loud!

Your second paragraph is key. The rules are what we have. As written. No one wants to swap paint. To be honest I am always looking around me. Watch a guy for 5 minutes and usually you can figure out is he has his sh*t together or not. I always give way to idiots but OTOH I am not on a mission to educate them either and will not seek them out for an argument.

Eventually they will meet another idiot and they will both have busted fiberglass and be sad.

And Carsten may have some lashes for me for my sacrilege against sailing but there are just as many idiot sailors as there are idiot powerboat guys - on a percentage basis.


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Originally Posted by Eco Voyager View Post
Wow! you guys are all a bit touchy!!!
<snip>

In my view the sailing boat should hold her course and tack when appropriate to do so and the power boat should wait for her to pass then overtake astern before the sail boat is far enough across the channel to have to tack again. This requires good timing and good manners by both parties.
As an internet discussion of the COLREGS goes this has been extremely civil and well mannered - usually by page 3 everyone is throwing crap bombs at each other - LOL...

I think your second paragraph above is spot on and think many on this thread share your view.

Both boats could have behaved slightly differently and I think the example of the 52 footer Tacoma is describing is what he hoped the cat guy had done.

But he didn't.

Hey - I get that it is a bit of a pain to beat to a slip under sail - especially after a long day of sailing. Tacoma's total time in the channel is way longer than mine as I happily chuff up the channel.

Imagine an outgoing tide added to the beat to windward and yes, I'd like to help Tacoma get home to his beer in the bar.

OTOH - If Tacoma is just into the channel and "meandering" back and forth and not making any effort to make it easy for me to get by? Well scr$w him. Not saying he did that, just saying if he did that.

Also if I saw him on starboard tack headed left, I could calculate when he would tack to port and realize he and I would meet just about where I want to turn left - I would have waited 2 minutes and let him get clear.

But we all agree the cat guys was an a-hole.

My only frustration - not that I care - is that Tacoma doesn't seem to have accepted he has any responsibility in this "from a regulatory standpoint"

Tacoma when presented over and over with opinions that he impeded falls back on "local" rules and ambiguous regs.

Jammer Six apparently would just like to throw the book away because it apparently is impossible to use.

Laws by nature cannot be interpreted 100% - Look at shore based law. If it was "black & white" there would be no lawyers or courts.


Millions of boats per day navigate all around the world using these regs. There must be some good in them.
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Old 17-06-2014, 03:13   #94
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I actually tend to agree with you onthis. A sailboat, under sail in a narrow channel may be considered to be restricted in its ability to maneuver. i argued this earlier on in either this or the other thread on this subject.
I can't get to "restricted" in this conversation...

Work boats are restricted by the nature of their work.

Anyway the sailboat can maneuver within the confines of the channel. He clearly maneuvered away from the cat to avoid the collision.

You could also try Constrained or Not Under Command but I can't get there in this case either.

From the definitinions:

"(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. [The term] "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

(i) A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course."
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Old 17-06-2014, 03:25   #95
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I can't get to "restricted" in this conversation...

Work boats are restricted by the nature of their work.

Anyway the sailboat can maneuver within the confines of the channel. He clearly maneuvered away from the cat to avoid the collision.

You could also try Constrained or Not Under Command but I can't get there in this case either.

From the definitinions:

"(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. [The term] "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

(i) A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course."
Hi ex-calif

I mentioned it because the rules does say; "include but not limited to". I'm aware that this rule is for work boats, it it does have a back door, allowing any boat to claim this status (an example would be a boat that had lost its rudder and was proceeding under a jury-rigged rudder. It could probably claim to be restrictd in it ability to maneuver).

I did note that if the OP wanted to claim this status - he would need to fly the day signal. Since he did not - he can't claim this status.

It was an aside note to show what factors might affect the approbation of blame inthis case.

By the way - I won't go running for my cat-o-nine-tails quite yet in order to give you a firm lashing

I also routinely give way or otherwise depart from the regs when I see a potential situation developing. I simply turn away or change course long before the other boat even realizes that the situation might occur.

But here ws a concrete situation and two parties insisting their interpertation of the rules was the correct one. Sadly, both were wrong - therefore a taste of the cat LOL:
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Old 17-06-2014, 04:29   #96
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

Jeepers. This is clearly a Rule 9 and Rule 13 situation, both parties have obligations as is typical under the COLREGS.


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Old 17-06-2014, 04:50   #97
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Weavis, this is incorrect.

We had a long go around about 10 months ago on exactly this issue and thought.

The COLREGS are there for a reason, and a significant part of that reason is that each vessel knows what to expect from the other one.

Using your own "common sense" could in fact endanger yourself, or others if you are not proceeding as expected.

If, however, those "big heavy vessels" are constrained by draft then the COLREGS already require you to be give way.
You didnt read what I wrote.
I said: "Most rules are common sense".
It a rule. A requirement. NOWHERE did I say use your OWN common sense.
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Old 17-06-2014, 05:46   #98
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
His comments

- As his boat approached my dinghy from astern at 5-knots he assumed the Rule 18 relationship existed and was certain he was the overtaking vessel per Rule 13
- He did not feel that my 3.5 knot dinghy impeded his passage in any way because the channel is 10 times wider than his beam and is 16' deep in the full width
- He saw that I would cross the channel to the right and then tack back to the left
- He said he slowed to four knots for about 10 seconds to allow me to pass ahead, per Rule 18, then resumed five knots and passed astern of me while staying just to port of the channel centerline
- He said his course deviation to pass astern of me was about 10 degrees for a couple seconds
- By the time I had tacked on the right side of the channel and regained speed heading to the left side his boat was 20 yards ahead of my course passing astern of him
- He did not feel that my tacking close to the docks or rocks presented a “sudden” change of course relative to his course. He saw it would take me about 45 to 55 seconds to complete the tack and sail back to the middle of the channel. That gave him plenty of time to change speed or maneuver
- He could see no reason a powerboat should expect a sailboat to alter course in the situation I describe because the channel is so wide relative to the beam of either boat.
- He has encountered hundreds of boats sailing in the channel and never felt that Rule 9b, impeding, was a controlling rule
- the near collision occurred when the other boat slowed suddenly after trying to pass. IF he had held his speed I would have passed astern
This is exactly the way I see it. Sounds like knowledgeable, experienced pro.
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Old 17-06-2014, 05:57   #99
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post

I don't think impeding is "blocking"
In this context it is. If the cat can pass the dinghy and remain in safe water, then he is not impeded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I am "finally past and clear." Actually in this situation I am past and clear on the right side of the channel and the sailing vessel is actually behind my port quarter, on starboard tack (heading away from me) and 55 yards away on the left side of the channel about to tack to port and come back at me - but I have no way of really knowing that. The docks are on that side. He could be planning to raft up with someone.

I am not obligated to be a mind reader of what that guy plans to do. I react to what he does and apply my understanding of the rules.
I think you must be playing the devil's advocate, Dan. OK, I'll play along. Since you've been following the dinghy, you've seen him tack back and forth - the natural assumption should be that he will continue to do so. Within the rules, any time doubt exists, you're obligated to assume the worse case scenario. Also you're only about 20 yards away, as you've kept to the centre of the channel.
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Old 17-06-2014, 06:09   #100
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
In this context it is. If the cat can pass the dinghy and remain in safe water, then he is not impeded.


I think you must be playing the devil's advocate, Dan. OK, I'll play along. Since you've been following the dinghy, you've seen him tack back and forth - the natural assumption should be that he will continue to do so. Within the rules, any time doubt exists, you're obligated to assume the worse case scenario. Also you're only about 20 yards away, as you've kept to the centre of the channel.
Yes this is a devil's advocate post showing the extreme scenario.

With two threads running on this I forget which one I posted what I would really do.

Trust me I am a nice guy.

I haven't and won't defend the cat guy. He was flat wrong rude and obnoxious.

My point is that both skippers should have helped each other out. If I was the cat guy I would have slowed and waited for him to clear my slip.

If I was the sailboat guy I would have tacked to a reach and passed his stern or luffed momentarily until I figured him out especially as I noticed him slowing.

Your rule - slow and wait to see what the inconsistent guy is going to do (which I agree with) also applies to the sailboat who clearly did not know what the guy was going to do (eventually turn left) - hence the verbal negotiation that ensued.
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Old 17-06-2014, 06:23   #101
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Jeepers. This is clearly a Rule 9 and Rule 13 situation, both parties have obligations as is typical under the COLREGS.


Dave
You insist rule 9 applies. What part precisely?

No-one has answered my query that if instead of the cat, the overtaking vessel was a 17 ft dinghy under power, would you still consider Tacoma to be impeding? Anyone?

I would hope this is sufficient to illustrate the absurdity of the 9(b) argument. If it helps to drive home that point, here is an excerpt from Cockcroft and Lameijer's Guide:


Quote:
Small vessels and sailing vessels are not required to avoid impeding
the passage of all power-driven vessels of over 20 metres in length
when in a narrow channel. Many power-driven vessels which exceed
that length may be able to navigate outside the channel limits.
However, it is not only the passage of a vessel showing the lights or
shapes to indicate that she is constrained by her draught which must
not be impeded. Small vessels should take the width and depth of the
channel into account and, if in doubt, keep clear of vessels likely to
be restricted.
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Old 17-06-2014, 06:40   #102
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Trust me I am a nice guy.
Never doubted it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Your rule - slow and wait to see what the inconsistent guy is going to do (which I agree with) also applies to the sailboat who clearly did not know what the guy was going to do (eventually turn left) - hence the verbal negotiation that ensued.
Agreed. Although it doesn't sound like a negotiation happened - for that, the cat skipper would have needed to indicate his intentions; as I read it, that didn't happen.
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Old 17-06-2014, 07:11   #103
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Yes this is a devil's advocate post showing the extreme scenario.

With two threads running on this I forget which one I posted what I would really do.

Trust me I am a nice guy.

I haven't and won't defend the cat guy. He was flat wrong rude and obnoxious.

My point is that both skippers should have helped each other out. If I was the cat guy I would have slowed and waited for him to clear my slip.

If I was the sailboat guy I would have tacked to a reach and passed his stern or luffed momentarily until I figured him out especially as I noticed him slowing.

Your rule - slow and wait to see what the inconsistent guy is going to do (which I agree with) also applies to the sailboat who clearly did not know what the guy was going to do (eventually turn left) - hence the verbal negotiation that ensued.
Very well formulated, getting at the true essence of the situation. I entirely agree with this

Like Lodesman, I also agree completely with the assessment of the commercial skipper Tacoma Sailor quoted. A great summary of what was wrong with the cat guy's moves.

If you put the two together, you start to get a fairly complete picture of the situation.
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Old 17-06-2014, 07:20   #104
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
You insist rule 9 applies. What part precisely?

No-one has answered my query that if instead of the cat, the overtaking vessel was a 17 ft dinghy under power, would you still consider Tacoma to be impeding? Anyone?

I would hope this is sufficient to illustrate the absurdity of the 9(b) argument. If it helps to drive home that point, here is an excerpt from Cockcroft and Lameijer's Guide:

One of the interesting questions that this thread has uncovered is this one about Rule 9.

I am still puzzled about whether Rule 9 has any application to this case at all. Since both vessels are under 20 meters, and both vessels can't operate outside the channel, then both vessels would be obligated to not impede the other, if the Rule applies.

I don't think the Rule was intended to say that one vessel under 20 meters is to "not impede" another vessel under 20 meters, particularly not if both vessels are burdened in the same way. This seems absurd. I think that the Rule was intended to regulate interactions between vessels under 20 meters (and vessels under sail) with vessels over 20 meters which unlike the burdened vessel cannot operate outside the channel. But the Rule does not say that specifically!

So it seems to me that Rule 9 cannot apply to this case, but you can't really say that for sure from the text of the Rule.

Does anyone have any insight into this? Lodesman? Is there anything in Cockcroft about it?

It's of purely academic interest because the application of Rule 9 would hardly change anything in the present case.
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Old 17-06-2014, 07:24   #105
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Re: When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
You insist rule 9 applies. What part precisely?

No-one has answered my query that if instead of the cat, the overtaking vessel was a 17 ft dinghy under power, would you still consider Tacoma to be impeding? Anyone?

I would hope this is sufficient to illustrate the absurdity of the 9(b) argument. If it helps to drive home that point, here is an excerpt from Cockcroft and Lameijer's Guide:
I'm with you. I fail to see where rule 9 comes into play. Here is the complete text:

Rule 9 : Narrow channels

(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.
(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
(e)
(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can take place only if the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34(d).
(ii) This Rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.
(f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a narrow channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(e).
(g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel.

I'll rule 9(i) is applicable. Otherwise we are in rule 13 country.

Both skippers here failed in their obligations - they both assumed they have "rights" - which they do not, they do however have obligations.
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