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velero · 24-05-2010, 08:13

Not to hijack Don's post, here is a similar question. I was passig another sailboat on her port side, we were both on starboard tack. I passed the boat and was ahead by about a boat lenght, the wind went down and having the heavier boat I slowed down. The other boat kept pushig as if he was still the stand-on vessel. And the answer is??? thanks
V49

Bash · 24-05-2010, 08:23

ROR #13 (d) uses the language: "until she is finally past and clear."

CaptainBW · 24-05-2010, 08:28

It sounds like you were downwind of the other boat. If so, you were the stand on vessel. The windward boat must give way on the same tack.

**nigel1** · 24-05-2010, 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainBW

It sounds like you were downwind of the other boat. If so, you were the stand on vessel. The windward boat must give way on the same tack.

If Velero 49 was the overtaking vessel, then Rule 13 is quite clear, "Not withstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, section I and II, ANY vessel overtaking any other vessel shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken"

If V49 was overtaking, she is duty boun dto keep clear of the other vessel until she is finally past and clear. Placing herself in a collision situation one boats length ahead of the other, she should alter course to keep out of the way

Simes · 24-05-2010, 10:47

Nigel1 is entirely correct.

Once the "Give Way Vessel" all ways the "Give Way Vessel" until all chance of a collision is over.
"Nothing in the Rules allows a vessel to use the rules to disadvantage another vessel".

Interesting discussion topic though.

If you are on port tack and there is a risk of collision with a vessel on starboard tack, what are your choices?

a) Bear away and pass astern
b) Round up, go head to wind until she is passed and clear.
c) Tack under her, and hope that she is intimidated enough to tack off to port.
d) Tack under her, and then shout "Windward!" whilst trying to Luff her.

Answers?

a = best option under normal circumstance, least risk of collision and it should be obvious to the other vessel the the action you are tacking is clearly to avoid her.

b = Probably the worst option, to easy to fall off onto the "Wrong" tack, not obvious to the other vessel that the action you are taking is to avoid her.

c = equal worst option, only viable if you have no choice but to intimidate her.

d = a common but poor choice, as you started off as the "Give Way Vessel" you will remain the "Give Way Vessel" until all chance of a collision is passed.
Just because you have forced the other vessel in to the "Windward" position does not mean that you are no longer the "Give Way Vessel".

Rules are fun arn't they?

Simes

**estarzinger** · 24-05-2010, 11:59

Full text of the overtaking rule below.

The last 7 words answer the question. As mentioned above you are burdened until "past and clear". The meaning of "past" is pretty certain (eg your transom is in front of his bow). The meaning of "clear' is a bit less certain but implies you and the other vessel can maneuver without immediate risk of collision.

Simes "Once the "Give Way Vessel" all ways the "Give Way Vessel" until all chance of a collision is over." is not practical because all chance of a collision is NEVER over if you are on the same body of water. Following that definition the initial give way vessel would always be the give way vessel, until hauled out. The burden shifts after the immediate manouver and risk is completed.

I would have said one boat length in front was well "Past and Clear". And that you were now the stand-on vessel (both leeward and being overtaken)

RULE 13 Overtaking

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she if overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly. (d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

velero · 24-05-2010, 12:12

Thanks Evan and others. Sometimes is dificult to know if the other skipper know and understand the rules. V49

Lodesman · 28-05-2010, 13:56

I think you've posed a really interesting question. Normally I consider the "past and clear" statement to mean that you need to have passed and be far enough ahead that if you turn or otherwise manoeuvre, it would not present a close-quarters situation with the vessel you just passed. The situation you describe puts another wrinkle into the equation. On a roadway, if you pass a car which subsequently speeds up to pass you, he becomes the overtaking car and assumes the responsibilities that entails. This is essentially the situation you've described - due to the wind (something that is beyond your control) the other vessel has sped up to pass you after you've passed him. This would tend to support estarzinger's suggestion that you would then be the stand-on vessel. I think it would be incumbent upon you nonetheless to have not done anything to force the overtaking vessel to manoeuvre, such as turning in front of him.