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Old 23-12-2014, 19:33   #271
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
That's funny, because you definitely leave an impression. There certainly is no reason to read your post again, as there was hardly justification for reading it the first time.

As for a duel, if you shoot a pistol anything like you post, you'd be missing a foot after you fired, even if your opponent had the mercy not to shoot you.

The one common trait of the Florida legislature seems to be that the members can't be too informed regarding the details of the issue they're representing, but they have to be absolutely dogmatic about their position. I believe the average age is 75. Come to think of it, some people here might be members.

In spite of all the fun of exchanging insults, your rationale for this legislation is a bit weak. Certainly someone who agrees with the legislation has a reason, right? I mean, apart from the derelict boats and the "I like my $15 balls*", which I find to be a thin rationale for handing over waterway authority to municipalities. If that's all you've got, really, then I guess we can leave it at that.

*mooring
Well, pooh on you!

I must admit that for an anonymous member of this forum, you sure know how to sling it. Might I ask where you're coming from with this diatribe?

I haven't been on this forum for very long myself, but when I smell BS, I react. So sue me.

Jacques
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Old 23-12-2014, 19:43   #272
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
That's funny, because you definitely leave an impression. There certainly is no reason to read your post again, as there was hardly justification for reading it the first time.

As for a duel, if you shoot a pistol anything like you post, you'd be missing a foot after you fired, even if your opponent had the mercy not to shoot you.

The one common trait of the Florida legislature seems to be that the members can't be too informed regarding the details of the issue they're representing, but they have to be absolutely dogmatic about their position. I believe the average age is 75. Come to think of it, some people here might be members.

In spite of all the fun of exchanging insults, your rationale for this legislation is a bit weak. Certainly someone who agrees with the legislation has a reason, right? I mean, apart from the derelict boats and the "I like my $15 balls*", which I find to be a thin rationale for handing over waterway authority to municipalities. If that's all you've got, really, then I guess we can leave it at that.

*mooring
Well, pooh on you!

I must admit that for an anonymous member of this forum, you sure know how to sling it. Might I ask where you're coming from with this diatribe?

I haven't been on this forum for very long myself, but I've lived in Florida long enough to learn to love it. You slander it wantonly? You get my feedback. Case closed.

Jacques
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Old 23-12-2014, 20:18   #273
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

I gave an unflattering opinion of the Florida legislature, but I assure you that this is not the same thing as slandering Florida, so I think I'm the one being slandered (actually libeled).
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Old 23-12-2014, 20:39   #274
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Yeah, cruisers hate Florida, that explains why there is a waiting list to get one of the 226 mooring balls in Boot Key Harbor right now.
There is a list because there are so few places for deep drafted vessels to stop (Maybe 8 within 150 miles of miami?) in the keys.

Having just completed this trip, we purposely avoided that mess in Marathon. We would have been #7 on that list yesterday but we decided to stay elsewhere.

Key West is a mess because the city doesn't have a proper plan for cruisers. The moorings are in the middle of a huge fetch. The associated city mooring system here is really bad. Showers/restrooms through the city mooring field is like being in prison and it makes me feel like a criminal. All that is missing is a misfiring fluorescent light. The dinghy dock is a free for all, not clean (covered in bird poo), and the place you process your paperwork is different from where you dock you dinghy. There is no convenient place for fuel. On top of all of that, its at least a mile walk to attractions and a $4 one-way bus ride. Plus, I don't think there is any kind of cruisers net to create a sense of community, which this whole argument for and against anchoring restrictions and mooring ball systems fails to take into account. Give people a chance to participate in a cohesive community system and they will self-police.

They want people to pay a premium for that?

Dinney Key is another poorly managed s-hole.

Taken all together, you can see why many cruisers are reluctant to participate in the mooring field program.

These cities should take a queue from St. Augustine.
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Old 23-12-2014, 20:50   #275
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
........

The one common trait of the Florida legislature seems to be that the members can't be too informed regarding the details of the issue they're representing, but they have to be absolutely dogmatic about their position. I believe the average age is 75. Come to think of it, some people here might be members.

In spite of all the fun of exchanging insults, your rationale for this legislation is a bit weak. Certainly someone who agrees with the legislation has a reason, right? I mean, apart from the derelict boats and the "I like my $15 balls*", which I find to be a thin rationale for handing over waterway authority to municipalities. If that's all you've got, really, then I guess we can leave it at that.

*mooring
News flash: Your opinion will have no weight on the Florida legislators.

Oh yeah, the almighty cruiser should be held in the highest regard...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neeltje View Post
.........

Yup, that anchorage was still quite occupied last time I looked, but from what I've heard, the Law came down on those who were beaching their dinghies on the strip of beach south of the bridge because some were also dumping their garbage and parking their cars there, and the owner didn't appreciate. Go figure.

Jacques
Oh yeah, the cruiser is contributing to the local economy? Apparently giving jobs to those picking up cruiser trash that was dumped illegally!!!

Same happened locally. A marina recently closed it's dock to dinghies (illegally, btw) from those anchoring nearby. It seems the rule was you could use the visitors dock if you spent $$ at the marina. For years, a decent cruiser would dinghy up, drink a beer at the marina bar or eat a cheeseburger, then run across the street to the grocery store or 2-3 blocks to West Marine. But it seems the marina got pissed when some cruisers loaded up their dinghy to look like a garbage scow, then instead of asking where the dumpster is located, they would pile several ginormous bags of trash around the decorative trash cans located on the dock. Of course, these particular cruisers wouldn't ask where the dumpster was because they're the same ones that would sneak in/out without spending any money. This is a high end marina, they got tired of being **** on by 'cruisers', hence no more dinghy landing.

Obviously, this is a small percentage of cruisers, but as with everything else, it only takes a few to ruin things for everyone. So the almighty 'cruiser' gets less respect by some than you might think.
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Old 23-12-2014, 21:04   #276
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

I am a long time Florida resident though I did take some time off to earn money in NC. I actually lived there in the BD (Before Disney), after which the whole state went to hell in a hand basket. I went to College at UWF in Pensacola when the panhandle was affectionately known as Baja Alabama. I loved Destin and Panama City Beach before they were turned into wall to wall condos 20 stories high. I even lived through a couple of honest governors, which is almost impossible to believe given recent history. Right now Florida has the best government money can buy and it has been bought.

The problem is not the anchoring policies as they exist, but the ones that wealthy individuals are trying to get the politicians that they have paid for to do their bidding. Any general anchoring law they pass is unlikely to stand up in court in the long run. Unlike New England where there are long established harbors and captains of the ports, Florida actually has very few official ports. Navigation rules allow special anchoring restriction in these designated ports and allow the Harbor Master/Port Captain to set these restrictions within the confines of the port. Outside of the ports anchoring is still wide open and I have never found any anchoring restrictions outside of designated ports. I have anchored off many a beautiful New England home outside of these designated ports and never had an issue raised. The official ports are designated by the USCG and not the local government, though they are managed by the locals. The reason these laws will/should not stand up in court is that though the feds delegated authority to manage submerged lands to the states, they specifically reserved Navigation to the feds. Many years ago the US supreme court ruled that anchoring was an essential part of navigation and could only be regulated at the federal level. This was specifically tested when a commercial vessel was anchored for a long period of time and the locals wanted to run it off. The supreme court said they couldn't and that as long as the vessel was seaworthy it was in navigation. Precedent means a lot in the law and this issue was settled quite a while ago.

The issue of derelict boats is a bit of a red herring as well. The state of Florida already has plenty of laws and Money to deal with derelict boats. Each county is supposed to get a share of the boat registration money for boats in that county. In 2013 the amount should have been about 8 million dollars. One of the specific uses permitted for this money is removal of derelict boats. Oddly enough though I've been trying to find out what this money is being used for (the county is required to make an annual report to the FWC) as it is only allowed to be used for specific boating related things. The thing I find odd is that all of the counties seem to be applying for FWC grants from the state portion of the registration fees for derelict boat removal. Read Florida statute 328.72 for details. Section 1 tells you how much the county gets for each class of boat registered and section 15 tells you what those county funds can be used for. I brought this law to the attention of the SSCA and no one at this point has been able to find out what this money is being used for or find the annual reports. Some counties which should be getting $3-400,000/yr from the boat registration fees and are begging for one time $50,000 grants from the FWC out of the state funds for derelict boat removal. I can't help but wonder where the county money went. Several people have bemoaned the fact that the poor tax payers are being stuck with the cost of derelict boat removal. The fact of the matter is that general tax payers are not getting stuck with the cost of derelict removal, boaters are. This derelict boat stuff is just so much BS.
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Old 23-12-2014, 21:09   #277
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboss View Post
There is a list because there are so few places for deep drafted vessels to stop (Maybe 8 within 150 miles of miami?) in the keys.

Having just completed this trip, we purposely avoided that mess in Marathon. We would have been #7 on that list yesterday but we decided to stay elsewhere.

Key West is a mess because the city doesn't have a proper plan for cruisers. The moorings are in the middle of a huge fetch. The associated city mooring system here is really bad. Showers/restrooms through the city mooring field is like being in prison and it makes me feel like a criminal. All that is missing is a misfiring fluorescent light. The dinghy dock is a free for all, not clean (covered in bird poo), and the place you process your paperwork is different from where you dock you dinghy. There is no convenient place for fuel. On top of all of that, its at least a mile walk to attractions and a $4 one-way bus ride. Plus, I don't think there is any kind of cruisers net to create a sense of community, which this whole argument for and against anchoring restrictions and mooring ball systems fails to take into account. Give people a chance to participate in a cohesive community system and they will self-police.

They want people to pay a premium for that?

Dinney Key is another poorly managed s-hole.

Taken all together, you can see why many cruisers are reluctant to participate in the mooring field program.

These cities should take a queue from St. Augustine.
Boot Key is mess because it's full??? It's actually a very well managed mooring field.

I agree, KW moorings aren't anything close to wonderful, in fact, barely useful. But the other choice is to anchor west of Fleming Key which has variable bottom, some clean sand, to mucky silt.

You can always pay to use the Key West Bight Marina dinghy dock (IIRC $6/day) to get closer to the action. I don't understand why you can't use either dinghy dock, they both belong to the city.
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Old 23-12-2014, 22:04   #278
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
........
The issue of derelict boats is a bit of a red herring as well. The state of Florida already has plenty of laws and Money to deal with derelict boats. Each county is supposed to get a share of the boat registration money for boats in that county. In 2013 the amount should have been about 8 million dollars. One of the specific uses permitted for this money is removal of derelict boats. Oddly enough though I've been trying to find out what this money is being used for (the county is required to make an annual report to the FWC) as it is only allowed to be used for specific boating related things. The thing I find odd is that all of the counties seem to be applying for FWC grants from the state portion of the registration fees for derelict boat removal. Read Florida statute 328.72 for details. Section 1 tells you how much the county gets for each class of boat registered and section 15 tells you what those county funds can be used for. I brought this law to the attention of the SSCA and no one at this point has been able to find out what this money is being used for or find the annual reports. Some counties which should be getting $3-400,000/yr from the boat registration fees and are begging for one time $50,000 grants from the FWC out of the state funds for derelict boat removal. I can't help but wonder where the county money went. Several people have bemoaned the fact that the poor tax payers are being stuck with the cost of derelict boat removal. The fact of the matter is that general tax payers are not getting stuck with the cost of derelict removal, boaters are. This derelict boat stuff is just so much BS.
A boat owner paying money to government is a taxpayer, hence I think we're saying the same thing.

You are correct, some of boat registration fees go back to the counties to be used (328.72 (15)):

Quote:
for the sole purposes of providing recreational channel marking and other uniform waterway markers, public boat ramps, lifts, and hoists, marine railways, and other public launching facilities, derelict vessel removal, and removal of vessels and floating structures deemed a hazard to public safety and health
Hence, money spent for derelict removal takes money from other projects. It's not 'saved' for the sole purpose of derelict removal. Example: A county budgets for a new boat ramp next year expecting $xx from vessel registrations. Ah crap, we had to remove 12 derelicts so the boat ramp has to wait. Point: I wouldn't go as far as to claim there is plenty of money to deal with derelict vessels.

And yes, there is the FWC grant program to pay for derelict removal when the county can't.

The whole point is why doesn't the owner of the vessel have to pay??

Again, a vessel is not derelict until (823.11):

Quote:
(1) “Derelict vessel” means any vessel, as defined in s. 327.02, that is left, stored, or abandoned:
(a) In a wrecked, junked, or substantially dismantled condition upon any public waters of this state.
(b) At any port in this state without the consent of the agency having jurisdiction thereof.
(c) Docked or grounded at or beached upon the property of another without the consent of the owner of the property.
Quite subjective to determine when a vessel is derelict. Hence, having a mooring agreement that includes additional requirements allows (future) derelicts to be dealt with prior to meeting the above guidelines.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just repeating the claims.
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Old 23-12-2014, 22:36   #279
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Quite subjective to determine when a vessel is derelict. Hence, having a mooring agreement that includes additional requirements allows (future) derelicts to be dealt with prior to meeting the above guidelines.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just repeating the claims.
Seems to me the definition of derelict doesn't depend on whether it's attached to a mooring ball or not.

So the mooring fields/anchoring regulations by municipalities can (and should) be separate from the derelict boats regulations.
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Old 24-12-2014, 05:58   #280
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

Hypothetical scenario:

A family of cruisers anchor their brand new boat in an appropriately designated area close to town so that they can take a 3-day road trip through the State and see the sights.

Since they don't know anybody in or near that town, they have no one to look after it while they're gone, so they batten down the hatches and make sure their anchor is well set.

They've been gone for 2 days when a Northeaster blows in and drags their boat into the middle of the marked channel, and, of course, nobody knows how to reach them.

Question: Is this boat now considered a salvageable derelict by law?

Just wondering.

Jacques
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Old 24-12-2014, 06:28   #281
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

Hypothetical answer.
I would not consider it derelict as the owners had not abandoned the boat with the intention of not returning.
Is it salvageable, yes it is, but how much the salvage award is worth will depend on the severity of the threat it was facing, and the efforts to which the salvor went to in order to save the boat.

If it had dragged out into a channel, don't be thinking you can retire on the salvage award.
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Old 24-12-2014, 06:37   #282
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Seems to me the definition of derelict doesn't depend on whether it's attached to a mooring ball or not.

So the mooring fields/anchoring regulations by municipalities can (and should) be separate from the derelict boats regulations.
Yep!

Monroe County ordinance enacted with approval of FWC under the Pilot Program:

http://myfwc.com/media/2430127/Monro...-Ordinance.pdf

Note: 26-102(a)(2)(a) talks about 'pre-derelict' conditions

The mooring agreements for KW and BKH:

http://www.cityofkeywest-fl.gov/egov...297_626525.pdf

http://www.ci.marathon.fl.us/downloa...ad.php?id=3308
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Old 24-12-2014, 06:49   #283
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

No salvage rights in florida so dont touch the boat in the channel.

http://m.myfwc.com/boating/waterway/...-process-faqs/

Btw the fwc website also has all the info on derelict vessel procedures.

Sent from my HUAWEI-M931 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 24-12-2014, 07:23   #284
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Yep!

Monroe County ordinance enacted with approval of FWC under the Pilot Program:

http://myfwc.com/media/2430127/Monro...-Ordinance.pdf

Note: 26-102(a)(2)(a) talks about 'pre-derelict' conditions

The mooring agreements for KW and BKH:

http://www.cityofkeywest-fl.gov/egov...297_626525.pdf

http://www.ci.marathon.fl.us/downloa...ad.php?id=3308

Interesting reading, and I'm pretty impressed with those regulations. I'm still maintaining that the derelict vessels portion, and even the "pre-derelict" portion can be enacted without giving all municipalities in Florida authority to specify/regulate all the anchorages in the state.

The part that concerns me is the restriction of anchorages outside of the designated/limited mooring field. You just know that each municipality is going to see this as an opportunity to restrict anchoring to whatever section of sand they feel like, you know, for environmental and public safety reasons. Every waterfront restaurant, hotel, or homeowner is going to think that it's in the public safety good that mooring be restricted to someone else's vista.
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Old 24-12-2014, 08:09   #285
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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We've been in and out of Destin Harbor twice recently. What is different these days? I'm asking, because I had never been there before 2013.

Ralph
Imagine the panorama as you drive over the Destin Pass bridge into the town or motor into the harbor from the Gulf (without that Disney-esque monster building that blocks all views. It was erected in the early 2000's.
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