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Old 20-12-2014, 12:08   #196
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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From my previous post to you, what do you want from me, as a cruiser travelling the waterways from Texas to Georgia?

We anchor out when we can. We go offshore when the weather is fair. We do use marinas very often. We spend weeks on moorings in Ft. Meyer's Beach, months at Boot Key Harbor. Weeks on the moorings in St. Augustine (where we have friends). We pump out, buy fuel, provisions, eat at restaurants, re-supply beer, wine, and rum at liquor stores. All the businesses and marinas seem to appreciate that we spend money with them. My wife buys blood pressure medicines at the pharmacies, and has had medical attention at a clinic in Florida. Typically, we're moving most days, making our way to the Bahamas, or going north to get away during hurricane season.

Attachment 94011

Everyone seems friendly, waves at us from their docks. Happily, I haven't met anyone like you. So, I ask what is your problem with cruisers? Honestly, I can only think of three anchorages where we are close to homeowners. Lake Sylvia, Cape Haze, and a tight little anchorage at Delray Beach, where we spend one night.

Attachment 94012

Maybe you can tell me exactly why I shouldn't be on your waterways ? The same inland waterway that stretches from Virginia to Brownsville, Texas.


And BTW....just where exactly are you looking, when you say the ICW is a 3,000 mile parking lot? Sorry, I must have missed that in our travels. Maybe you have problems with locals in some places, but I am not your problem.

Ralph
Ralph,

And what exactly did I say to spur this on, may I ask?

Jacques
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Old 20-12-2014, 12:13   #197
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

The class warfare comment came from the rather obvious intent to exclude people that can't pay $15 a night to stay in a mooring. Sounds too much like I don't want that type in my neighborhood to me.
I can pay, but will choose not to as I'm not a person that likes crowds, I do not like parties or busy restaurants either. I'll just keep moving, South Fl is not my idea of paradise.
You know that thread about where to spend Christmas? A lot of people posted about the nice resorts to stay at. One posted about a deserted beach where a couple of friends built a driftwood fire and cooked hamburgers on a discarded piece of steel and drank cheap beer. Well that to me sounded like paradise way more than the resort did.

See, I have lived on both sides of the poverty line, and you know what? I was the same guy then as now.

Ran into a couple of guys from the Annapolis area the other day, they sailed into the fuel dock at my Marina as their battery was dead in what most would consider a derelict, duct tape on the hatches and all. They didn't buy any fuel but pumped out, got water and plugged into shore power for long enough to get enough charge to start their engine. I offered them my little Honda to charge some more but they didn't want to. I commented about a beer cozy one had made from a fishing float, he had hollowed it out to hold a beer bottle, after I left the dock, he hollered at me and threw me the cozy.

Now as we say down South, he didn't have a pot to piss in, nor a window to throw it out of, but he gave me something anyway.

How would they have fared in your community that wants $15 a night to stay? I feel sure they would have been told to leave and if they didn't right away the police would have been called.
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Old 20-12-2014, 12:23   #198
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Ralph,

And what exactly did I say to spur this on, may I ask?

Jacques
Your post #153. The one with all red type. It seems to me that you didn't care for what I had to say?

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Old 20-12-2014, 12:56   #199
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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......Once you give up freedom to the government at any level, you usually don't get it back, so I like to see a good reason for giving up that freedom...............
Didn't you already give up some freedom when you registered or documented your boat? Should you be free not to do that? Should you be free not to pay taxes on your boat?

It's a silly argument.

It's pretty simple really. If you don't want to pay to park your boat, don't. Just move on to somewhere where you can park it for free.
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Old 20-12-2014, 12:59   #200
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Limiting boats to mooring fields and charging a nominal fee to use the moorings is a simple way to keep people from "storing" unused boats or from living on them rent free while dumping refuse and sewage overboard at night and using government services without paying property taxes.

Whatever the argument, these laws and mooring fields wouldn't have come to be if there wasn't a problem to be solved.

Realize that you are still free to anchor in most of Florida's water. Just not maybe where you would like to.
I was trying to stay out of this but I simply cant let this stand without at least offering an opposing view.

Lets start with storing unused boats for free. For years while Living in Colorado my wife and I kept our boat on a FREE mooring here in Palm Beach "free of charge after we bought the gear which is quite expensive of course and purchased from a local business". Because the boat was stored for free in the mooring field and because the surrounding area offers very little parking or shore access we joined the Palm Beach sailing club to the tune of $2000.00 per year adding to their bottom line. We now own 2 boats here in the mooring/anchorage that we pay no rent on and which together fetch the shoreside insurance companies more than $6000.00 per year. Every year I pay the Florida vessel registrations fees on our boats and their dinghies which amounts to about $500.00 I just purchased $200.00 worth of diesel this last week from the Sailfish Marina and I think they like the fact I regularly add to their bottom line. Did I mention our cat needed a new house battery bank this year....CHA..CHING! A battery house here in town just cashed in on $2400.00 more dollars off of this squatting live aboard. Oh yes every week I have a powerful need to buy groceries. Costco, Publix and Walmart certinly take my money every week without batting an eye at my squatterhood. I haven't yet mentioned Boat Owners Warehouse which I singlehandedly kept in business this year with an honorable mention going to West Marine. Last but not least one lucky company was able to squeeze another $7500.00 from this turnip after a generator head on our Northern Lights suffered a massive short circuit. We have many friends and fellow live aboard's nearby who elect to use their anchors in leu of a mooring for free I might add in the mooring field and just to the south of it. This notion of free though is absurd as we all know that just maintaining the ground tackle of an anchored boat is an expensive proposition, If you add in the upkeep of said vessel then somebody on shore is probably making a profit off of this derelict lowlife homeless vagabond same as they do off of me . Please tell me exactly what city government services I am receiving and not paying for and I will gladly step up with my fair share. I seriously question anyones motive when they use statements like using government services. Fire Department.. No. if you have a fire at your house the fire department will most likely show up to help you. I doubt they could help us in time. Same goes with Ambulance service none to be had out here. We make our own water which Im glad to say is most likely better than anything the city provides and as a benefit it cost the city nothing for us to provide it for ourselves. It is true that we don't pay property tax to support the local schools but the state got 22k in sales tax off of us less than 2 years ago. All in all Im thinking Im still a contributing member of society and as of now I still have the right to anchor my floating hovel as I see fit, for any of you to say otherwise well........shame on you
Maybe we should talk a little about all this sewage and waste we as live aboard's are dumping. Are you kidding me? Does anyone not remember the news from this summer where large sections of the ICW had warnings out for staying out of the water due to runoff? The ICW in places was literally bright green and toxic yet it was this same government that you want to grant more power to regulate us anchoring and polluting that was doing the polluting. Did I mention we have compost toilets on both our boats so no direct discharge just a couple of 5 gallon buckets 4 times a year. Many of our neighbors have gone the same route and even so If they are dumping it is such a tiny amount we never see it unlike all the trash that washes out of the city drains. One last thought to end my rant. Some people have mentioned the damage caused by anchoring yet no one mentions that the government dredges up this same environment everybody is so concerned about. Tear up some seagrass as a boater and you may get a big fine. Grease the right politicians hand and you can build all sorts of crap along this waterway and into it or make rules further restricting the average persons access to the water. This cant be a good thing. Derelict floating hazards absolutely need to be dealt but with laws already on the books and with money already being paid in the name of marine management.

END RANT
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Old 20-12-2014, 13:31   #201
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Didn't you already give up some freedom when you registered or documented your boat? Should you be free not to do that? Should you be free not to pay taxes on your boat?

It's a silly argument.

It's pretty simple really. If you don't want to pay to park your boat, don't. Just move on to somewhere where you can park it for free.

Right now, that's Florida.

The silly argument to me seems to be that I should pay for a mooring ball because the local municipality feels that it shouldn't be free to anchor it.

I'm just wondering who is really behind these laws, and what their rationale really is, because as I stated earlier, the derelict boat issue could be handled in a different way.
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Old 20-12-2014, 16:16   #202
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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In season more boats would fit in Boot Key under anchor than at the mooring field of nowadays. People would anchor closer than the moorings and they were able to anchor in more areas. A full harbor nowadays would be about 350 boats. In the old days while anchoring a full harbor would be well over 400 boats.
I don't believe any of that. There is no way you could set an anchor and be as close to the neighboring boat as you are on the mooring balls. The limit is 45' boats, and believe me they are on top of each other. I had a captain with slightly less common sense than most decide to run his engine in reverse when he charged his batteries. In addition he had the tiller lashed against a rudder stop. He was 4ft off my stern when i hollered loud enough he could hear down in the dungeon. He was on a ball 1 row over and 1 ball down. He apologize profusely and agreed to put the engine in neutral.
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Old 20-12-2014, 16:28   #203
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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This is really a "win" for legitimate cruisers.
Exactly what is a "legitimate cruiser"?

And how do more anchoring laws stop illegal sh*tting and dumping trash in the water that the existing laws against sh*tting and dumping trash in the water don't?

As Herman Cain says, The're working on the wrong problem".
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Old 20-12-2014, 16:34   #204
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Derelict floating hazards absolutely need to be dealt but with laws already on the books and with money already being paid in the name of marine management.

END RANT
Thank you!

From a probably illegitimate cruiser that anchors mostly but spends a LOT of money ashore.
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Old 20-12-2014, 16:50   #205
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Right now, that's Florida.

The silly argument to me seems to be that I should pay for a mooring ball because the local municipality feels that it shouldn't be free to anchor it.

I'm just wondering who is really behind these laws, and what their rationale really is, because as I stated earlier, the derelict boat issue could be handled in a different way.
Yeah, and if all of you "cruisers" put their money where their mouth is, we'd probably be able to deal with the derelict boat issue by 10 AM tomorrow.

You don't want to pay for parking? Then go park down the road. Jeesus! What's this country coming to?

Jacques
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Old 20-12-2014, 16:54   #206
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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There are other laws that cover ALL of the undesirable activity that you reference.

The purpose of these laws, simply enough, is to open up another revenue source for localities, while also giving them control over local waterways. You use a nice strawman argument, but it falls apart rather quickly under actual analysis.

In all of the areas that have mooring fields, there are regulations limiting or eliminating anchoring elsewhere. So instead of being free to anchor anywhere along the coast or natural harbor, cruisers are forced to pay to connect to a mooring ball a lot closer to their neighbors.

Who primarily benefits from this? Cruisers? Or waterfront property owners who don't want to see a boat anchored in their vista.

I think we all know.
It's obvious you are not knowledgeable on the specifics in Florida. Yes, there are laws that allow a muni to get rid of a derelict AFTER it becomes a derelict. A mooring field has requirements like insurance, no wet storage (at least for BKH), etc. Hence, it allows the muni to get in front of the derelict problem by kicking the boat out before it becomes a derelict. Plus the muni has a name associated with each vessel, no more looking for the 'missing' owner of the derelict.

The buffer zones around the mooring fields average in the 150' range, so your straw man of large buffer zone is simply not true. Yes, BKH/Key West both have no anchor zones due to sensitive sea grass bottom, but that's environmental, would have been there regardless of the mooring field.

Your argument of a muni making money on a mooring field is not true at all. Neither FMB or BKH have ever turned a profit, they both lose money year after year.

And yes, as a cruiser, I'll gladly pay for a mooring ball when available if that's where I want to be.

Heck, just last weekend I even paid to park my car close to the venue I wanted to visit! How dare they charge me just so I can park my car for a few hours! FWIW, overnight parking at Ft. Myers Airport costs more than the daily mooring ball at FMB. Haven't heard anyone bitching about those prices, if they don't like it, they park somewhere else.
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Old 20-12-2014, 17:07   #207
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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I don't believe any of that. There is no way you could set an anchor and be as close to the neighboring boat as you are on the mooring balls. The limit is 45' boats, and believe me they are on top of each other. I had a captain with slightly less common sense than most decide to run his engine in reverse when he charged his batteries. In addition he had the tiller lashed against a rudder stop. He was 4ft off my stern when i hollered loud enough he could hear down in the dungeon. He was on a ball 1 row over and 1 ball down. He apologize profusely and agreed to put the engine in neutral.

Don't believe it, but I'd guess you have no experience with anchoring in Boot Key before the moorings were installed. At the east end of the anchorage you could practically walk boat to boat to get to Dockside. Yes the boats would bump if the wind died but no damage done, of course less gold platers back then! The city originally started with I believe 50 moorings, and it was obvious then that there would probably be less capacity. If you want a thrill try to pick up a mooring at the Coconut Grove sailing club, with your beam you wouldn't be able to pass between two of the moored boats!
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Old 20-12-2014, 17:09   #208
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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Exactly what is a "legitimate cruiser"?.
A person who uses his or her boat for "cruising". That would be going from place to place, staying a few days or weeks each time.

To avoid unnecessary questions, a person who lives on a stationary boat for extended periods or a person who "stores" a boat at an anchorage or mooring is not a cruiser. That would be a "squatter".
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Old 20-12-2014, 17:22   #209
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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A person who uses his or her boat for "cruising". That would be going from place to place, staying a few days or weeks each time.



To avoid unnecessary questions, a person who lives on a stationary boat for extended periods or a person who "stores" a boat at an anchorage or mooring is not a cruiser. That would be a "squatter".

Are these your definitions or the official definitions . There lies the problem. What about a cruiser that stops for 3-6 months to work to build up there kitty? Would they appreciate being called a squatter?
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Old 20-12-2014, 17:27   #210
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Re: What is the current FL anchoring policy?

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It's obvious you are not knowledgeable on the specifics in Florida. Yes, there are laws that allow a muni to get rid of a derelict AFTER it becomes a derelict. A mooring field has requirements like insurance, no wet storage (at least for BKH), etc. Hence, it allows the muni to get in front of the derelict problem by kicking the boat out before it becomes a derelict. Plus the muni has a name associated with each vessel, no more looking for the 'missing' owner of the derelict.

The buffer zones around the mooring fields average in the 150' range, so your straw man of large buffer zone is simply not true. Yes, BKH/Key West both have no anchor zones due to sensitive sea grass bottom, but that's environmental, would have been there regardless of the mooring field.

Is this really about derelict boats? I don't think that it is. Who's behind it? Nothing you mentioned in your post can't be handled with laws specifically targeted at derelict boats. If a boat is coast guard registered, the owner is easily found. If it's registered in Florida, as it needs to be if it's in the state for more than 90 days, the registration number is right there on the sticker. Again the owner can be found.

What is the problem this program is intending to solve? Maybe we should start there, and come of with a solution to that. If the only answer is dealing with derelict boats, we should have some regulations regarding that.

I didn't make a "strawman" of a large buffer zone around moorings. The argument against giving a lot of waterway authority to municipalities is the concern that they might pull a "Marco Island", and set arbitrary anchoring limits in order to appease a few influential locals, at a significant cost to the cruising community.

No need to get into chest thumping mode. Just tell us what problems you see this law solving.
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