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Old 13-03-2013, 13:52   #1
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Question VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

Quick Summary:

Trying to buy a boat abroad (previously have had some good responses to my other threads your responses have led me to this final one).

Quick over view:
* Used boat manufactured: 2001 outside EU
* No VAT document available from previous owner from time of import (cant get one either, HMRC not interested too.)
* Boat has been in country for 6 years
* I am now buying boat at a reduced price.

My final question is:

What will they try and charge me VAT for? (I am confident they will charge now).

Answer options: (4 options now not 3)
1, The original price of the boat back in 2006 when it was first entered into the country (however I seem to have lost all proof of its value then)...oops
2, The price I am paying for it (Now in 2013)
3, They will come out and value the boat themselves in its current condition and charge me on what they believe the boat is worth today.
4, Customs will seize the boat and auction it off themselves. (option 4 from member: Atoll thanks)

Please select one answer, if you can think of another answer then for those of you who like to give more info please do.
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Old 13-03-2013, 14:04   #2
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

2 is easiest option for customs,with a new owner

3 for the old owner if he chose to pay the tax,,,ie engine is not working,osmosis,rigging needs replacing these are all factors that will be taken into account as long as you can verify .

unlikely option 1 since the current owner is unable to pay any tax on the boat. persuing the 2006 tax due on an unprovable price would force them to sieze the boat and auction it off

at the end of the day customs are more interested i collecting tax NOW,rather than litigation,storage and siezure
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Old 13-03-2013, 14:13   #3
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
2 or 3
unless you can convince them otherwise!,ie engine is not working,osmosis,rigging needs replacing these are all factors that will be taken into account as long as you can verify .
unlikely option 1 since the current owner is unable to pay any tax on the boat. persuing the 2006 tax due on an unprovable price would force them to sieze the boat and auction it off
That's my thoughts too, would they really seize the boat, would they not have done that already within the 6 years?. Not sure I like your option 4!! lol :-). but taking into account your other suggestions too. looking forward to everyone else thinks. (Ill add your option 4 now if it lets me)..
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Old 13-03-2013, 14:20   #4
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

it is probably a case of them being unaware of the vessels tax status hence they havent allready impounded the boat.

best bet is to lay your cards on the table and ask the customs what they would do to help you rectify the situation,if the boat is going to be siezed by the marina anyway.
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Old 13-03-2013, 14:28   #5
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

My guess is that they would go for the higher value!, in this case a guesstimate on it's 2006 import value (pretty safe to say to have crossed an ocean to get to the EU she would have been in decent condition / better condition than now!).....not to say that you couldn't argue the point that should be on current value, which may result in a visit to the boat - but could be that pics and some Youtube would convince them.

I doubt they would seize the boat and sell it just because no VAT was paid at time of import in 2006 by the PO. They may seize the boat to force payment from you (albeit not physically tow it away!) but likely only if they think you are not going to pay. Ultimately they could then auction off the boat, but that would only happen if you still wouldn't pay the VAT (by then they would have issued a bill!).

So, I guess I am saying option 1. or 2!........certainly on buying price I would factor in the most expensive option! Plus if dealing with the Portuguese VAT man the cost of getting someone who can deal with them in the local lingo / paperwork.
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Old 13-03-2013, 14:32   #6
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
it is probably a case of them being unaware of the vessels tax status hence they havent allready impounded the boat.

best bet is to lay your cards on the table and ask the customs what they would do to help you rectify the situation,if the boat is going to be siezed by the marina anyway.
It would not be seized by the marina the current owner I think does have some money to pay for that, If I lay my cards on the table with customs they would not seize immediately then would they? (once they are aware) I had not thought of that until you mentioned it. That would be a huge nightmare, in UK at least they would work with you especially if your a new owner, Other EU countries would they?
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Old 13-03-2013, 14:34   #7
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
My guess is that they would go for the higher value!, in this case a guesstimate on it's 2006 import value (pretty safe to say to have crossed an ocean to get to the EU she would have been in decent condition / better condition than now!).....not to say that you couldn't argue the point that should be on current value, which may result in a visit to the boat - but could be that pics and some Youtube would convince them.

I doubt they would seize the boat and sell it just because no VAT was paid at time of import in 2006 by the PO. They may seize the boat to force payment from you (albeit not physically tow it away!) but likely only if they think you are not going to pay. Ultimately they could then auction off the boat, but that would only happen if you still wouldn't pay the VAT (by then they would have issued a bill!).

So, I guess I am saying option 1. or 2!........certainly on buying price I would factor in the most expensive option! Plus if dealing with the Portuguese VAT man the cost of getting someone who can deal with them in the local lingo / paperwork.
option 1,they could only do that if the boat has a "book value",easy if it is a beneteau or production boat,but hard to prove if it is a one off custom build.
montenegro is only 1200 miles from portugal,so no oceans crossed.

plus why would they penalise the prospective new owner with an above market valuation in its current condition.
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Old 13-03-2013, 14:41   #8
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pirate Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

FFS.... how hard is it... everything you needed to know was in the last thread...
Buy the frickin boat or walk away.. aint no free lunch
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Old 13-03-2013, 14:58   #9
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

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FFS.... how hard is it... everything you needed to know was in the last thread...
Buy the frickin boat or walk away.. aint no free lunch
Thanks for that very helpful input Boatman61. I was just looking for an overall view on my final question as it is the route I think I am taking, rather than your obvious statement without a response on my question. I am sure you will know a lot comes into play when buying a boat and I value the good opinions I have had so far. Sadly not yours on this occasion though.
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Old 13-03-2013, 15:06   #10
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

Why not let the current owner bring the boat outside the EU.
You buy, bring it in and pay the taxes. I think Madeira has 15% VAT (or used to).

Obviously VAT is based on the price you paid for it.
The fact that the boat was six years within the EU is not your business.

Your option 2

Cheers Rob
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Old 13-03-2013, 15:08   #11
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multihull View Post
Why not let the current owner bring the boat outside the EU.
You buy, bring it in and pay the taxes. I think Madeira has 15% VAT (or used to).

Obviously VAT is based on the price you paid for it.
The fact that the boat was six years within the EU is not your business.

Your option 2

Cheers Rob
Thanks, but its not seaworthy at present.
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Old 13-03-2013, 15:14   #12
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zooplax View Post
It would not be seized by the marina the current owner I think does have some money to pay for that, If I lay my cards on the table with customs they would not seize immediately then would they? (once they are aware) I had not thought of that until you mentioned it. That would be a huge nightmare, in UK at least they would work with you especially if your a new owner, Other EU countries would they?
the problem is that the current owner is basically a "tax evader" and liable to pay vat,plus any fines for 6 years of evasion.

this is how the customs will see the case to date.

buying the boat with the knowledge that the boat is in breach of the law will not give you much protection if they do decide to prosecute,a bit like buying stolen property in good faith.
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Old 13-03-2013, 15:17   #13
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pirate Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zooplax View Post
Thanks for that very helpful input Boatman61. I was just looking for an overall view on my final question as it is the route I think I am taking, rather than your obvious statement without a response on my question. I am sure you will know a lot comes into play when buying a boat and I value the good opinions I have had so far. Sadly not yours on this occasion though.
A lot comes into play yes.. however we gave you the info re- VAT.
What you do with it is down to you.. from where I sit this is just another thread going nowhere..
Buy the boat.. fix it.. sail to the Azores and settle the VAT there.. or.. sail around the world and pay nothing till you get back.
But when you've a boat that you appear to have the hots for going at an as you say mega cheap price.. ask a question.. get lattsa answers then come back with this... your a WOFT
TROLL BELLS.. Sorry mate..
try being here a few years..
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Old 13-03-2013, 15:22   #14
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Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
the problem is that the current owner is basically a "tax evader" and liable to pay vat,plus any fines for 6 years of evasion.

this is how the customs will see the case to date.

buying the boat with the knowledge that the boat is in breach of the law will not give you much protection if they do decide to prosecute,a bit like buying stolen property in good faith.
He does say he has paid "but has no proof"... the tax office have nothing to say he has not paid except he has no proof. (this is all CE & RCD aside). Just trying to mash out if this really is too too much risk, I am happy to pay for the Tax just not at its original value in 2006... (now is not a problem) customs would come after the boat and not the previous owner right?
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Old 13-03-2013, 15:32   #15
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pirate Re: VAT Amount Due? "PLEASE Pick ONE Answer" 1, 2 or 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multihull View Post
Why not let the current owner bring the boat outside the EU.
You buy, bring it in and pay the taxes. I think Madeira has 15% VAT (or used to).

Obviously VAT is based on the price you paid for it.
The fact that the boat was six years within the EU is not your business.

Your option 2

Cheers Rob
Actually Madiera is 10%.. but you have to be a Madiera resident... else as a Portuguese resident you can be damn sure I'd be taking advantage
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