USCG Documentation Gone Awry

[micah719]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

Way OT, but...
My boat has a registration (pink slip) , but I can't find the HIN on the starboard transom . The number seems correct as to the builder (Formosa Boat Builders), length, year, (1980) and hull # (#7, not too popular ) but if push came to shove, how would I prove it?

There was some discussion about Formosa's here:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ugly-1084.html

Not sure if this group is any help....but they might know someone who is:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/petersoncutter/info

Zeehag here on CF, she runs the SSSSM thread, has a Formosa...throw her a line, perhaps she has an idea?

[svGenesis]

So if I am buying a vessel with a Florida title what iwould be the purpose of registering it with the coast guard??

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

I might start by getting the abstract of title from the USCG. I don't think it costs much, and might have some useful info in it such as the real name of the lender, maybe a loan or account number, perhaps some names or phone numbers that might be useful.

Anyone buying a documented vessel should do this. It's the same as doing a title search on a house. The abstract will show the legal owners and any liens against the vessel. These may include moorage or other charges against the vessel.

[dohenyboy]

Originally Posted by MYTraveler

Security Pacific was acquired by Bank of America. They should be able to help.

https://research.fdic.gov/bankfind/d...eFlag=&tabId=1


Right. here is verification. I used to have an account at Security Pacific.

[dohenyboy]

If you are in California you will have an easier time. An officer at the local branch of the Bank of America will know who to call and find out who signs off on the old loans. You are not the first with this problem.
Worst case is this: You have to sue Bank of America as successor to Security Pacific Bank in a quiet title action. If no one at Bank of America is able to help you, this will get the attention of the legal team and it will get done. I know it is a huge headache but sometimes it is the only way.

[hellosailor]

Sometimes, you don't have to sue. An attorney's letter telling them that they have 30 days in which to provide the paperwork which they were obligated to retain, or else they will be sued for their failure to respond, investigated for their failure to maintain records in accord with state and federal law, and additional damages and legal fees resulting from their misfeasance or malfeasance or simple carelessness, can work wonders.


"Gee, do we give this man his paperwork? Or....pay a boatload more in regulartoy fines and damages?" often motivates the pencil pushers incredibly well. Most lawyers will draft & send the letter for $100 or less.

[jamhass]

Originally Posted by Dougtiff

lastly you can not have the vessel registered with the state AND have her documented. United States code annotated 1999 title 46 shipping # 12124 " a documented vessel shall not be titled by a state or required to display numbers under chapter 123 [46USCA& 12301 et seq:] and any certificate of tittle issued by a state for a documented vessel shall be surrendered in accordance with regulations prescribed by the secretary of transportation." I know about this because a friend of mine moved his boat to Alaska and they tried to force them to register, he took the State to court, the Judge thru it out quoting the above Federal regulation, in fact the Fed could take your vessel if they wished [probably would never happen]

Not quite correct.

TRUE: a boat cannot be both Documented and Titled.

FALSE: a boat cannot be Registered and Documented. In fact, a state CAN require registration (and payment of registration fees, property tax, etc) of a Documented vessel.

The issue is only confused if a State treats title and registration as one and the same.

[hellosailor]

What Jamhaas said.


Anyone who can pass a high-school reading comprehension test can see the "trick question" is that the CFR refers to TITLE and that is not REGISTRATION. Nor does REGISTRATION necessarily involve the DISPLAY of numbers.


As to a state judge in Alaska...really, folks. In the US most judges are political appointees or elected to the office, and in neither case are they required to have any legal training or education. Just popularity. Somewhere in this country there's a lower-level court justice who has ruled on anything for anyone--and been reversed at least twice on appeals.

[Ron Rico]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

As to a state judge in Alaska...really, folks. In the US most judges are political appointees or elected to the office, and in neither case are they required to have any legal training or education. Just popularity. Somewhere in this country there's a lower-level court justice who has ruled on anything for anyone--and been reversed at least twice on appeals.

Sweet mother of....c'mon man, before you spew that stuff, get your facts straight. In the US, while most judges may be elected or political appointees, in order to run and be elected, or appointed, they are required to have both a Juris Doctor degree, AND have passed the state bar exam for the state in which they are running or hope to be appointed.

Sheesh.

[hellosailor]

Sorry, Dude. But I know lawyers and judges and judicial staff that work for the judges, personally. And I know FOR A FACT that many of those judges don't have a LLB or JD even though some of their "inferior" staff do.


I also know several folks who were told "give us a $$$ donation and we'll get you a judgeship", which is long-standing old news for both parties in the Northeast.


And in case you missed it, maybe five years ago there was a major investigation into town judges in upstate New York, where even the ABA went on record conceding that many of them were incompetent, had no legal training, and shouldn't be ruling over much of anything. Except...there's too much inertia to fix the system.


Yes, I do know my facts. If they're different in your state, or in Alaska, good for you. Legal qualifications are NOT needed everywhere. And that's the norm.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Ron Rico

Sweet mother of....c'mon man, before you spew that stuff, get your facts straight. In the US, while most judges may be elected or political appointees, in order to run and be elected, or appointed, they are required to have both a Juris Doctor degree, AND have passed the state bar exam for the state in which they are running or hope to be appointed.

Sheesh.

Are you prepared to pay one dollar for each judge in the US without a JD degree? If so please tell me how long a list you want.


Sent from my GT-I9192 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by Ron Rico

Sweet mother of....c'mon man, before you spew that stuff, get your facts straight. In the US, while most judges may be elected or political appointees, in order to run and be elected, or appointed, they are required to have both a Juris Doctor degree, AND have passed the state bar exam for the state in which they are running or hope to be appointed.

Sheesh.

The lower "level" the court, the less likely there will be a requirement that the judge be a lawyer. (But there is no requirement that a US Supreme Court justice be a lawyer.)

I wonder if there is any state that requires all of its judges to be lawyers. California, I think, requires all judges in criminal matters to be lawyers.

[dohenyboy]

The California constitution requires all judges to have been, for ten years prior to appointment, either a member of the state bar or a judge of a court of record.
However, a law degree or bar membership is not required for appointment as a Federal district judge.
Someone could serve as a Federal district court judge for ten years in California and then be appointed as a California state judge, without being a lawyer or going to law school.
In California there is a position known as a Commissioner. Commissioners are often part time judges and deal mostly with traffic "infractions." I would guess that if it concerns more than an infraction, a defendant has the right to insist on a judge hearing the matter.


Why can't things remain where i carelessly left them?

[hpeer]

So how does one check to see if this is all clear?

Our boat was built in Great Britian. The original owner sold it to someone who sold it to us.

We used a reputable broker for the deal but......now I'm not sure we did a proper total search. Then there is the question of importation fees. How do we know these were paid?

USCG documented vessel, it was documented by either the original owner, or more likely the previous owner.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by hpeer

So how does one check to see if this is all clear?

Our boat was built in Great Britian. The original owner sold it to someone who sold it to us.

We used a reputable broker for the deal but......now I'm not sure we did a proper total search. Then there is the question of importation fees. How do we know these were paid?

USCG documented vessel, it was documented by either the original owner, or more likely the previous owner.

Assuming the boat is located and used in the US, there are no Federal fees to worry about. Import *duty* (1.5% unless there is treaty benefit) is what matters. Many foreign-made boats that should pay duty when brought into the US (namely those who belong to US residents) have not paid it.

I suspect that the only way to get proof that the first US owner paid the duty without running the risk of creating a problem is to get it from the first US owner. Then you need a chain of bills of sale that do not say that the boat was sold outside the US and you should be fine.

Lots of people do not get caught because many CBP officials are confused when they think that USCG registration means duty has been paid. Not all CBP official are confused like that and that keep lawyers busy.

Another story is that if any of the sales happened outside the US then duty will usually be due again because there is no exemption for "returning goods" (that is not the wording they use in the US but the concept is the same).

If the boat was imported by a dealer it is likely they will have kept records.

State and county taxes are another story of course.