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Old 06-04-2016, 11:44   #16
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
evan-
I think even the FWP would get a headache trying to figure out if "sojourning" equals "residing" in Florida. A Brit taking a job in Florida could be coming in under the radar, or by work visa, and in any case he and his boat might not be "residing" there.
.
Yea -starts to get complicated . . . But my point was this does change the clarity of the answer we gave up thread. I believe (someone here will certainly know this for sure) Florida law Sets a pretty clear benchmark on the tax aspect:" the vessel will become taxable at a rate of 6% of fair market value if the boat remains in Florida for 90 consecutive days or 183 days within a calendar year". I suspect the FWP are likely to believe if it is Florida for longer than this benchmark then it is also for safety equipment purposes.

I have never seen this aspect spelled out or resolved in court, although I know it has been examined several times in France with Brit ex-pat. boats.

My guess is that so long as he holds a valid uscg cruising permit he will be ok, but there is a max duration on that. I believe they will not tax a foreign flagged vessel with a valid cruising permit (but not 100% sure). I dont know if you admit to working if that causes any problem getting a cruising permit or not - it is certainly not the intent of the cruising permit.

I knew the correct technical answer if he was cruising thru . . . But I do not know the answer if he is working there. I don't envy anyone trying to sort this out with US officials. If it is a Van De Stadt 60'er, then there is enough tax money in play that getting expert help might be sensible.

I might note that in addition to life jackets, I believe fire extinguishers need to have uscg approval.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:11   #17
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

AFAIK all 'state' tax and registration laws apply only to domestic vessels. Foreign-flagged ones are subject only to federal laws in that regard.


Aside from that "marine white" paint instead of the usual red...AFAIK a USCG fire extinguisher just means the strap or bracket is robust enough to hold it still when the boat is rocking. Never did impress me, but since they are so cheap, and extra fire extinguishers are such a small burden...Here, this fills the spec. And that one over there, puts out more fires. (Hard to argue with that.)
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:25   #18
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

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He will be dissappointed for sure and with his draft might not get close enough to step ashore
I'm afraid that with his draft, he might not be able to get within sight of land.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:27   #19
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Mmmm . . . . That actually changes the answer . . . . Foreign flagged vessels which "take up residence" can be expected/required to meet the local safety regulations. Along with paying local taxes. The French require that of ex-pats UK flagged vessels.

Is he going to import the boat?
Yes, I think he will have to eventually.

But he also needs to understand the interim situation, hence the question.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:34   #20
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

I have cruised the east coast of Florida with 8 ft draft. Its kind of doable if you watch the tides, but I have touched bottom at times.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:36   #21
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

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My guess is that so long as he holds a valid uscg cruising permit he will be ok, but there is a max duration on that. I believe they will not tax a foreign flagged vessel with a valid cruising permit (but not 100% sure). I dont know if you admit to working if that causes any problem getting a cruising permit or not - it is certainly not the intent of the cruising permit.
I don't think that is completely true. I looked into this a couple of years ago because, as non US citizen, I can't have a boat CG Registered in my name. Assuming the rules haven't changed, there is an exception to the limits on a cruising permit; if you hold a green card and the vessel is flagged in your "home" country the cruising permit can be renewed indefinitely without the need to remove the boat from the US. Not sure about the tax implications, which probably vary from state to state.

In the end we had my better half (who is American) take title to the boat - I'm the unpaid crew :-) 'Hope she never leaves me and sails off in "her" boat!
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:49   #22
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

If he's there on a work visa and takes a job he automatically considered a resident of Florida and as a resident is required to have all vessels owned by him registered in the state of Florida. He will also be required to get a Florida drivers license. US documented vessels owned by Florida residents are required to have a state issued decal. If they have owned the boat more than 6 months in another US taxing jurisdiction they are not required to pay the 6% tax, but non US jurisdictions are specifically excluded and must pay no matter how long they've owned the boat. Foreign flagged vessels on a cruising permit are considered tourists and the boat is exempt from both the tax and registration requirements. Taking a job means you are now a resident and not a tourist and created a plethora of opportunities for the tax man to dip into ones pocket. Of course if one takes a job without a proper visa or a green card one is in violation of the law and being summarily ejected from the country as well as possible criminal sanctions. I'm assuming that your friend will have the proper visa since he is specifically coming here to take a job. It will be interesting to see what happens if he gets inspected by the FWC or the USCG and they see a Florida drivers license on the owner of a foreign flagged boat.
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Old 06-04-2016, 13:06   #23
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

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I have cruised the east coast of Florida with 8 ft draft. Its kind of doable if you watch the tides, but I have touched bottom at times.
And the rest of us with three ft less draft, run aground
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Old 06-04-2016, 15:40   #24
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

When I lived and sailed in Florida the bottom ran into me occasionally.😘


S/V B'Shert
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Old 06-04-2016, 16:13   #25
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

After Nader's car safety regs killed off the safest car in the World (the Jenson Interceptor FF), nothing would surprise me.

If I ever get a boat here (still chasing) at least a quick trip to Walmart will get any necessaries that don't come with the boat.

Still, even with the extreme cold and blizzards of the last few days, I must admit I am having a really great time here.

Great people, great food, but Michelob cider sucks donkey ones (it's 'wet stuff' with a cheap apple sweet dissolved in it).

PS Samuel Adams Revolution IPA is absolutely excellent.
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Old 06-04-2016, 16:58   #26
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

Does anyone know whether the requirement to have USCG approved life jackets is applied to foreign flagged yachts cruising in U.S. waters?

For years there was a lot of ambiguity about life jackets. Life jackets are the "key hole", type, uncomfortable and heavy and not very friendly to wear. They are used world wide on all vessels private and commercial. They are also approved by different countries for their legal purpose. And believe it or not they are sometimes made by the same manufacturer. You, correction, IIIII call this d--- politics. The only superior quality that sets them apart of all others is that the "key hole type lifejacket" is the only one that will right you or turn you over with your face completely out of the water if you happen to be unconscious. Some countries have reciprocity of use, for example Canada and the US have a mutual understanding that both countries can travel in the opposite country and not have to worry about lifejackets and I believe it goes for most of the minimum equipment list. I was boarded in Florida and there were no issues with "Canadian" approved lifejackets on a Canadian vessel.

Now for personal floatation device (PFD) are often mistaken as life jackets and are not life jackets. They are personal floatation devices and are most of the time superior to life jackets for floatability. Most lifejackets will give you a lift or floatability of 15 1/2 lbs. ( 2 1/2 lbs. more than the weight of an average head... whether full of brains or not... hihihi! ) Some PFD's will lift more than 15 1/2 lbs. and the coverall PFD's will lift up to 35 lbs. No manufacturer guarantees that PFD's will "right" you in an upright position if you happen to be unconscious. However the PFD's will offer different options for the different sport that you prefer. As for the color, red, orange and yellow were the only ones accepted for years. Since approximately 1996 other colors for different sports or fashion are accepted. All lifejackets and PFD's should fit properly for every person onboard and should indicate the amount of pounds of lift it offers. I believe, for babies, PFD's are available for babies 9 to 19 pounds and will right the baby in an upright position when submerged. None available for less than 9 pounds.

As a rescuer, I have a floatation coverall that has an "H" harness built in for "Airlift" and give you super warmth for long time aboard in adverse conditions. Also has a hoody and a wrap around for face shield, a pull straps for ankles and wrists to prevent the cold water from infiltrating. You do not run marathons with this but it sure keeps you warm and is quite flexible. If you are going to be on night watch, it is grrrreat to have. I also have a two piece floater PFD which I use for short rescues and then a warm weather PFD for summertime.

Those of you that mention "racing" you have to wear what the racing federation will approve for your events. Those are classified as "lifejackets" as they have to right you if you are unconscious. Some federations only require that you wear some form of floatation device that will protect you from impacts, therefor those are custom made for that intended purpose with a super collar for neck protection and helmet support.

Having said all this I have a PFD for most of the activities that I will be participating in and I was inspected once and was not wearing an approved life saving device for that particular country and I did not argue... I did purchase a lifejacket to meet the minimum and still wore my comfy coverall.

Hope I have answered the original question and if not ask the local authorities what they will accept as minimum equipment list. Regards, Roger.
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Old 06-04-2016, 17:13   #27
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm afraid that with his draft, he might not be able to get within sight of land.
And also as ocurred to me after my previous reply, a 60 footer may well have an inconvenient air draught also, even with our lowly 50ft requirement the fixed bridges darn sarf by Fort Lauderdale and Miami are restrictive enough to drive us outside and offshore, but at least our 5.25ft draft is OK most places All in all Cowes seems a better proposition.


edited to add:- the larger fire extinguishers the USCG marine versions require a more sturdy holding bracket and strap, available from stock from West Marine. I had to buy two such strap brackets for our boat for the larger two of our extinguishers and buy several more to replace the out of date stuff smaller ones we inherited, fortunately on sale in our case as BOGOFS and for twin extinguisher packs. I bought the marine version from West that are stamped USCG approved, the Home depot domestic ones are not so..
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Old 06-04-2016, 17:24   #28
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...sitor-1610.htm


http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/...ty/TP-511e.pdf
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Old 06-04-2016, 17:24   #29
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

I had this argument with USCG in Florida and fortunately had a copy of United States Code of Federal regulations to prove them wrong. Code of Federal Regulations, Title 33 and 46 make several references to this situation.

One of many references in the Codes ......

Title 46
Chapter 43
Section 4301. Application
(b) Except when expressly otherwise provided, this chapter does not apply to a foreign vessel temporarily operating in waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
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Old 06-04-2016, 18:15   #30
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Re: USCG Approved Life Jackets -- Required on Foreign Flag Vessels?

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My understanding is the same as above, must comply with the flag state regulations, not US (unless taking passengers for hire from a US port; that's a whole different discussion.)

Last I heard the US CG was working on changing the rule for PFDs to eliminate the US-only CG approval (46 CFR 160) and move to accepting an international CE standard. I haven't been following this since I don't need any new ones right now, but it should make things easier in the future.
I have been following this very closely. There are two major issues with the USCG and lifejackets.

First is that for approval life jackets must meet minimum flotation requirement that exclude what are called 'boyancy aids'. These smaller, lighter, and far more comfortable jackets are pretty much standard around the world for dingy sailing and greatly encourage people to actually wear them instead of just shoving them into a locker. The entire dingy/skiff racing circuit is watching this closely, since at major regattas (like worlds, and Olympics, etc) US sailors have to wear a USCG approved jacket while everyone else can wear the aids.

Second is that USCG approval is insainly expensive, and each specific model number has to be seperatly certified. By model here I am not talking just about an engineering change, if the manufacturer wants to sell the same jacket in a different color they have to get it seperatly approved. At a total cost of more than $50,000 per jacket, and over a year to get approval the USCG has effectively killed any development in lifejackets in the US.

See The Battle For a Better PFD | Sailing World for more.
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