Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-05-2018, 12:32   #1
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch (and +3 smaller)
Posts: 1,974
Images: 2
Unwarranted search

Heard about this? https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-l...y-itself-stake
__________________

TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 13:10   #2
Registered User
 
Miz Pea's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: St. Petersburg, FL, USA
Boat: 40 ft monohull powerboat liveaboard w two 60 hp outboards
Posts: 54
Re: Unwarranted search

Let's see if this link works:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-l...y-itself-stake


The Legal Battle Over a $75 Boating Fine Where Liberty Itself Is at Stake

By Sara Rose, ACLU of Pennsylvania
April 25, 2018 | 5:30 PM

Tags





On a pleasant May evening in 2016, Fred Karash and four friends were enjoying a boat trip on Lake Erie when, without warning, they were stopped by law enforcement officers and detained for more than an hour while the officers searched Fredís 23-foot cabin cruiser.

The officers, who admitted they had no reason to suspect the boaters had violated any law or regulation, claimed authority under state law to search any boat at any time on any Pennsylvania waterway to conduct a ďsafety inspection....Ē
__________________

Miz Pea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 13:14   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,438
Re: Unwarranted search

It will be interesting to hear the ruling when it comes down.
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 13:38   #4
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,168
Re: Unwarranted search

It will indeed be interesting how this develops.
Up here in Canada, the authorities do conduct random stops to verify safety equipment but I have never heard of a situation where they would turn your boat inside out unless they had good cause.
For a safety check, they come on board, ask you to present relevant papers and then they have a checklist of all the items they expect to see. In this case, they would ask for the skipper to present flotation devices for every person on board - they would not go searching through the boat for flotation devices.
It's stories like these that make me think three times before entering US territory on land or sea.
I must admit though, I have never been mistreated in any of my US (limited as they are) trips.
Jd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 14:35   #5
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Annapolis MD; currently in New England
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,114
Re: Unwarranted search

I've seen police boats all over in the US do this stuff. And I was a victim of it myself once when I got a ticket for not having a PFD when dinghying around a marina. Honestly I never really reflected on it.

I think the court will have no choice but to find for Fred. It's pretty clear cut; either stop everyone, or stop only those who appear to be breaking the law.
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 14:51   #6
Now on the Dark Side: Stink Potter.
 
CSY Man's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Boat: 2001 Albin 28TE.
Posts: 3,537
Images: 116
Re: Unwarranted search

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
It will indeed be interesting how this develops.
Up here in Canada, the authorities do conduct random stops to verify safety equipment but I have never heard of a situation where they would turn your boat inside out unless they had good cause.
For a safety check, they come on board, ask you to present relevant papers and then they have a checklist of all the items they expect to see. In this case, they would ask for the skipper to present flotation devices for every person on board - they would not go searching through the boat for flotation devices.
It's stories like these that make me think three times before entering US territory on land or sea.
I must admit though, I have never been mistreated in any of my US (limited as they are) trips.
Been boating in the US, the Virgin Islands and the Bahamas for over 30 years.
Never been boarded. Perhaps luck or what, but if the water cops see a well maintained boat with polite and sober crew, cruising at slow speed, they will probably look for somebody who really needs to be boarded.
Again, my situation could be pure luck.
Never been pulled over in a car either in 20 years.
(This one is luck, I have been bad on the road occasionally )
__________________
Life is sexually transmitted
CSY Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 14:57   #7
Now on the Dark Side: Stink Potter.
 
CSY Man's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Boat: 2001 Albin 28TE.
Posts: 3,537
Images: 116
Re: Unwarranted search

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
I've seen police boats all over in the US do this stuff. And I was a victim of it myself once when I got a ticket for not having a PFD when dinghying around a marina. Honestly I never really reflected on it.

I think the court will have no choice but to find for Fred. It's pretty clear cut; either stop everyone, or stop only those who appear to be breaking the law.
Uh, dinghying around without a PFD is like begging for a bust: Please Officer, you can see inside my Dink, See: No PFD, please come and harass me because I am unsure of what I need, and if I do know, I donít care, please come and talk to me...
__________________
Life is sexually transmitted
CSY Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 15:08   #8
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 21,736
Unwarranted search

A few decades ago my Brother had his 45í Sportfisherman torn completely apart, every drawer removed, the contents dumped in the middle of the floor and the drawer thrown on top of it. Bed clothing, everything, every locker etc.
Under the guise of a safety check. This was Coast of S Fl and I assume he fit the profile of the typical drug runner, and knowing my Brother he was short with them, and they were going to teach him a lesson.

I have been stopped several times by every form of law enforcement there is, but never boarded. I still wonder what jurisdiction the Sheriff has five miles off the coast of Stewart Fl though.
CBP in Clearwater detained me for a couple of hours right under the bridge after dark one night, calling in everything about my boat and circling it taking video etc. asking questions on who was aboard etc, multiple times. I brought up a couple of different times that if they would buy an AIS, they would have known this hours before I got there.
I bring up that to every LEO Boat that pulls alongside to talk, and so far not even one has had AIS, but they will have 1000+ HP on the stern?
CG pulled up beside me off the West coast of Fl. In a big RIB, coastal patrol boat in real rough weather, the night that father and his kids drowned if anyone remembers that, but weather was stupid bad for them to be out in that thing. They wanted to know where I was coming from, last stop etc. I was concerned for their safety, and wondered how best to handle them trying to board if they were foolish enough to try that at night, bad weather etc.
I figured heave to and let them approach from windward?
a64pilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 15:30   #9
Registered User
 
Fiveslide's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Boat: JBW club 420, MFG Bandit, Snark
Posts: 752
Re: Unwarranted search

A safety check could and should be nothing more than asking to be shown required safety gear and nav lights appropriate for the time of the stop. There is no need for law enforcement to search for these things on there own in every drawer and cabinet inside the boat. Ask to see each item and I will retrieve it for them. How hard could it be to get law enforcement to go along with that?

I'm not against safety checks, I politely oblige if it is carried out with respect to me and my boat. I'm against an officer searching for things because other people have been known to transport drugs via boat. I have all my safety gear and I'm never hiding anything on my boat so if they act like assholes, I can act like an *******... And record it on my phone or camera so I have proof they were assholes first.
__________________
I love big boats and I can not lie.
Fiveslide is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 15:38   #10
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 21,736
Unwarranted search

I believe they have to have what amounts to a reason to stop, a safety check gives them that.
Then of course they can say the owner was acting suspicious, not answering questions the same, that I think gives them probable cause to conduct a search.
Remember this is not a house, even though our boat is legally registered in the State of Fl as our domicile and that paper on file in the court house, I donít think we have the same rights as if I would renting a trailer.
I think that needs to change, but Iím not holding my breath.

However I have only once been asked to show safety gear, we were riding in our dinghy and FWC slowed down, he pointed to his vest, I held up ours and off he went.

My way of thinking is be nice to them and let them do whatever they are going to, you canít stop it anyway. I figure itís their game, their playing field and they set the rules, you think you have a chance of winning? I chose not to play. I donít take videos of them or anything else, just smile like an idiot and hope they go away, so far they always have.

While I have never been boarded, itís my understanding that under no circumstances are you allowed below, you wait in the cockpit until they root through whatever they want to.
a64pilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 15:46   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Currently in the Eastern US
Boat: 1989 Jeanneau Voyage 11.20
Posts: 227
Re: Unwarranted search

When we sailed out of St. Simons Island, we've been boarded numerous times by the USCG. For no other reason than we're usually the only sailboat out there at any given time because NOBODY day sails out of there. I'm guessing they need a quota or something. When it's been within the same year, we flash the yellow paper from our last inspection and they move on. OR, it's some of the same crew and they know they've already done an inspection and they move on after some verbal contact. Either way, we comply (which I think may be different from the OP post as that was state police?).

Going OT here a bit, I just was on a FB post that a boat that is Federally documented must have that documentation number permanently affixed to their boat (inside is fine) preceded by NO. Never heard of that and we don't think it's on our boat anywhere and every time we've been boarded, they've NEVER looked for it. Not sure what's up with that?

One time when they boarded, we had just caught a yellow fin tuna. We were more than three miles out so we showed them our federal fishing permit. They hadn't seen one and didn't know it existed. Go figure.
CaptsWife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 15:47   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 66
Re: Unwarranted search

I heartily congratulate Fred for having the guts to challenge this in court. I've been a liveaboard for a few months now, and have not yet been boarded by the Coast Guard, but the whole idea of cops (no matter how polite they may be) walking into my *home* any time they feel like it, invading my privacy, perhaps catching me at an awkward moment (face half shaved, in the shower, etc), expecting me to answer to them, and looking for reasons to write me a ticket and/or arrest me, really gets me worked up.

PLEASE, everyone, let's stop just apathetically saying 'Oh well' when the police invade our privacy and trample our constitutional rights. Let's band together and force a change! I just sent an email to the ACLU asking if I can make a donation specifically to help with this case. I hope many will donate, and write their congressmen, and make their voices heard in any way they can.

(Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with the ACLU; in fact I disagree with a lot that they do. But in this case I support them 100%.)

If the Coast Guard decides to invite themselves into my home, they WILL be on camera, they WILL be on YouTube, and all they will hear me say is 'I will not answer questions except in the presence of a lawyer' (5th Amendment right).

Photographers' rights: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-right...ng-photographs

Laws on recording conversations in all 50 states: https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/u...IONS-CHART.pdf

Privacy Protection Act of 1980 (says 'notwithstanding any other law,' the police can't search or seize your camera or other 'documentary materials' that you intent to publish (i.e., post on the internet)): https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/chapter-21A
Water Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 15:57   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 66
Re: Unwarranted search

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I believe they have to have what amounts to a reason to stop, a safety check gives them that.
Then of course they can say the owner was acting suspicious, not answering questions the same, that I think gives them probable cause to conduct a search.
No. Refusal to answer questions is a 5th Amendment right, and by itself is not a basis for suspicion. Plenty of case law on this. Reason for doing a search must be "clearly articulable." Except that it doesn't matter on a boat: they can detain and search you for no reason at all, in the absence of ANY suspicion.
Water Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 15:58   #14
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 13,756
Re: Unwarranted search

It helps to look at it from their point of view. They have no way of knowing whether or not you have firearms aboard; the safer thing for them is to assume you do; therefore, keeping you in the cockpit along with whoever else is on your boat at the time, to them, is a simple safety issue.

I am pretty sure some of those guys are bullies, but not all of them. And all of them have someone to chew on them from above.

If someone's boat is getting hit on a lot, I'd wonder what it is about the boat or their behavior that attracts their attention....perhaps it's a really cool boat!

They're doing a job they've been instructed to do in a particular way, and I think A64's smile and be nice is the best policy to adopt when you are boarded. What you think about the whole deal, well, just keep that private.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 16:07   #15
Registered User
 
Simi 60's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 1,031
Re: Unwarranted search

I guess that's what happens when you have.....
Your rights taken and given away
Have given everyone guns
Supply them with drugs
and militarize the police.

Someone's getting rich off of all this.
__________________

Simi 60 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
arc

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Toe Rail / T-Track Search delmarrey Construction, Maintenance & Refit 8 03-10-2011 11:42
Boat search - honing in... alstki Monohull Sailboats 12 07-12-2005 13:08
Search GordMay Atlantic & the Caribbean 0 22-08-2005 21:47
In Search of the Real Tristan Jones GordMay The Library 5 22-08-2005 04:29
Search engines Gisle Forum News & Announcements 0 14-03-2003 18:20



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.