Unwarranted search

[Tornadosailing]

Originally Posted by CSY Man

Uh, dinghying around without a PFD is like begging for a bust: Please Officer, you can see inside my Dink, See: No PFD, please come and harass me because I am unsure of what I need, and if I do know, I don’t care, please come and talk to me...

I made the same stupid mistake. Brand new dink bought a few weeks earlier. Had to wait for the motor to arrive. Rowed it from the dock to the beach to install motor, then zipped around peanut island to try it out. Got a $90 greeting from the sheriff.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Even this burns my britches, and I don’t think we in Canada (nor anywhere else that claims to be a free society) should simply accept this.

I know, I know … it’s been tested in court — at least the roadside stops have. Not sure if the boating “safety check” has in Canada. And I know the law as written grants broad authority for police to make these kinds of “safety check” stops. But it still seems like an unreasonable over-reach to me.

I’m perfectly fine with police stopping boats where there is some sort of reasonable grounds to suspect there may be a violation. But I am totally against random stops. This seems an unwarranted and unnecessary breach.

I’d love to see the evidence or data that shows this actually has a positive impact on accident rates, morbidity or mortality.

Agreed Mike. It seems awfully pretextual. When it comes to autos, LE at least needs the proverbial "busted tail light" or "failure to use turn signal" justification to perform the initial stop.

A worthwhile analogy to boats may be RV's. Not sure about Canada, but in the US there's a distinction drawn between RV's that are capable of being transported and those more permanently affixed when it comes to the extent of LE's ability to stop & search. But even with an RV traveling down the road there still needs to be an initial justification for the stop, and any subsequent search must have its own justification (i.e. "reasonable suspicion" which is less than "probable cause").

My vague understanding is that the USCG gets it broad authority from one of the US's oldest statutes, namely one enacted shortly after the nation's founding which enabled US customs vessels (the forerunner to the CG) unlimited authority to board vessels entering US waters to collect duties (hey, the new nation was desperate for cash after having to fight off you Brit-types for so long ). Not sure how that progressed to unltd. boarding rights for the USCG in int'l waters as well, but that's another story. As Water Dragon mentioned I think, this broad authority (ostensibly for "safety checks") has now been delegated to state & local LE as well.

If nothing else, I hope the case being brought by the ACLU helps clarify, and best case sets some limits perhaps more consistent with autos & RV's as applied to boats. It's one thing for LE to have such broad authority when it comes to speed boats out for a day of fun, but quite another for a cruising boat which also serves as a private home.

[Attikos]

The ACLU is using this case as a fundraising project. Sadly, that's mostly what they do these days: identify potential donor groups and find opportunities to stimulate them for cash. Careful about taking such news as this at face value.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Just when you think it can't get any worse it does. While the USCG and Customs and border patrol can board and search a US flagged boat virtually anywhere, this has not been true of state law enforcement agencies. The state of Florida, in keeping with it's well established principle of limited government, has given itself unlimited jurisdiction on "any Voyage that begins or ends in Florida". The FWC can now enforce FL laws on any boat that meets this condition no matter how far from shore. They also fail to define Voyage. So does a voyage end at ones next port of call after leaving Florida or if one is going to Maine and has several intermediate ports of call, can the FWC enforce Florida laws anywhere along the east coast? It is illegal to dump raw sewage in FL waters. Does this now apply to federal and international waters if the "Voyage" starts or ends in Florida? This law seems to be a totally unwarranted power grab by the Fl state government and should provide the ACLU with new challenges. The fact of the matter is that many if not most FWC officers were "deputized" by the USCG as a result of the "Patriot Act" passed after 9/11 and could board you, the new twist is applying Florida laws beyond state waters.

Hmm, and they recently limited stops for safety inspections......interesting dichotomy.

https://www.waterwayguide.com/latest...ed-by-governor

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Hmm, and they recently limited stops for safety inspections......interesting dichotomy.



https://www.waterwayguide.com/latest...ed-by-governor

I believe about a year or so ago a State Senator or similar was stopped and hassled. I.E. his special status wasn’t recognized.
I believe this comes from that

[a64pilot]

Maybe it was this guy?
https://www.floridatoday.com/story/n...ions/78016364/

[Exile]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Hmm, and they recently limited stops for safety inspections......interesting dichotomy.

https://www.waterwayguide.com/latest...ed-by-governor

Not an initial stop, only subsequent ones. The USCG does this too.

[rourkeh]

A very good reason to not have your vessel USCG documented..
The U.S. Coast Guard has the authority to stop, detain, and search at random and without probable cause any documented vessel anywhere in the world. So you can be cruising in the Bahamas, or the Caribbean minding your own business and a Coast Guard cutter can board your vessel. They can tear the boat apart as part of their search, destroy personal property and they are not responsible for damage sustained in the execution of the search. I know of several people who have been boarded by the USCG in foreign waters and had extreme damage in the nature of 10's of thousands of dollars worth of damage to their boat, such as the destruction of cabinetry and bulkheads and never even received an apology.
This sort of behaviour becomes more difficult If your vessel is not documented in the U..S.A

[Water Dragon]

Originally Posted by toddster8

BTW, I am pretty sure that south of the border, you are absolutely not allowed to photograph navy or police. I would certainly ask them politely, first.

Exactly. In different countries, different rules apply. At least we still have SOME rights in the USA.

[Water Dragon]

Originally Posted by Exile

My vague understanding is that the USCG gets it broad authority from one of the US's oldest statutes, namely one enacted shortly after the nation's founding which enabled US customs vessels (the forerunner to the CG) unlimited authority to board vessels entering US waters to collect duties (hey, the new nation was desperate for cash after having to fight off you Brit-types for so long ). Not sure how that progressed to unltd. boarding rights for the USCG in int'l waters as well, but that's another story. As Water Dragon mentioned I think, this broad authority (ostensibly for "safety checks&quot has now been delegated to state & local LE as well.

The CG's authority comes from the Revenue Cutter Service Act of 1790. Like you said, its purpose was to make sure commercial ships were paying their taxes. Private pleasure boats were practically nonexistent at the time. It has always applied to US-flag ships worldwide, not just entering US waters. Plenty of interesting info and history here: www.sailfeed.com/2012/10/coast-guard-boardings-and-your-fourth-amendment-rights-part-1/

[Water Dragon]

Originally Posted by rourkeh

A very good reason to not have your vessel USCG documented..
The U.S. Coast Guard has the authority to stop, detain, and search at random and without probable cause any documented vessel anywhere in the world. So you can be cruising in the Bahamas, or the Caribbean minding your own business and a Coast Guard cutter can board your vessel. They can tear the boat apart as part of their search, destroy personal property and they are not responsible for damage sustained in the execution of the search. I know of several people who have been boarded by the USCG in foreign waters and had extreme damage in the nature of 10's of thousands of dollars worth of damage to their boat, such as the destruction of cabinetry and bulkheads and never even received an apology.
This sort of behaviour becomes more difficult If your vessel is not documented in the U..S.A

It's my understanding (I could be wrong) that the CG can board boats that are US-state-registered anywhere in the world, not just CG documented boats. The only way around it is to document your boat in certain foreign countries.

If the CG boards, ask them for a tort claim form. You can file it to claim compensation for damage they caused, or even for the extra fuel you burned up during the boarding, or lost work time because they made you late for work, etc etc.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Water Dragon

It's my understanding (I could be wrong) that the CG can board boats that are US-state-registered anywhere in the world, not just CG documented boats. The only way around it is to document your boat in certain foreign countries.

If the CG boards, ask them for a tort claim form. You can file it to claim compensation for damage they caused, or even for the extra fuel you burned up during the boarding, or lost work time because they made you late for work, etc etc.

Why would your coast guard be in other parts of the world?

If you mean other coastguards, much of the world does not have a coastguard and certainly not a militarised one

[Water Dragon]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Why would your coast guard be in other parts of the world?

The US Coast Guard has authority to board US vessels anywhere in the world. I don't know if they're ever out patrolling, say, the South Pacific or 50 miles off the Australian coast, but here's a video of them spending 4 1/2 hours aboard sv Sea Wolf near San Andres island, Colombia, roughly 1000 miles from US waters:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEEbIR2hBn4

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Water Dragon

thinwater, I'm quite aware of the range of USCG authority, and that under current law they're exempt from the 4th Amendment. My point is that the 5th Amendment still applies to ALL law enforcement, including US Customs, including at the border. This I know for a fact. Anything at all you say to the police, even if you're innocent, even if you tell the truth, can be used against you. Innocent people have been put in prison, because of something (truthful) that they said to the police, and only exonerated when new evidence comes up after being in prison 20 years.

True of course. Stamp your foot at authority and see how much it helps.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Water Dragon

The US Coast Guard has authority to board US vessels anywhere in the world. I don't know if they're ever out patrolling, say, the South Pacific or 50 miles off the Australian coast, but here's a video of them spending 4 1/2 hours aboard sv Sea Wolf near San Andres island, Colombia, roughly 1000 miles from US waters:

Sounds more and more like a totalitarian regime to me.