Traveled to 9 countries without a passport

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by hpeer

As to my own unwitting attempts to cross borders illegally....
Once I accidentally drove across the W. Germany to Austia border, and only noticed when I saw a solider with a gun running after me in my rear view mirror.

That must have been shortly after WW-II I guess...

Another time I was driving through a small town in Luxomburg, down a small street adjoining some farm land, when I got stopped unknowingly at the Swiss border.

At the border between Luxemburg and Switzerland? But given that you are apparently old enought to have been driving around Europe in mixing up your memories may be understandable :-)

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by hpeer

And in the same way, democracy cannot survive overpopulation. Human dignity cannot survive it. Convenience and decency cannot survive it. As you put more and more people onto the world, the value of life not only declines, but it disappears. It doesn't matter if someone dies.

Good thing the population explosion is over then.

Now just build enough bathrooms.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by hpeer

From Issiac Asimov
In response to this question by Bill Moyers: What do you see happening to the idea of dignity to human species if this population growth continues at its present rate?] " ....

One of my favourite Isaac Asimov quotes:
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

That must have been shortly after WW-II I guess...



At the border between Luxemburg and Switzerland? But given that you are apparently old enought to have been driving around Europe in mixing up your memories may be understandable :-)

1) About 1990?

2) Technically Liechtenstein, but all those wee ones look alike anyway.

However, your point about age and memory is, uh, ??? Oh yeah, forgotten!
Uh , correct.



A good memory is an over rated asset, especially when you get to choose what you loose.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by hpeer

1) About 1990?

Must have bene before 1995 at least. However I remember that before Austria joining the EU we were just waved through at the border...

2) Technically Liechtenstein, but all those wee ones look alike anyway.

This is important however, as there are no border posts between Liechtenstein and Switzerland. They have been in a customs union since forever.

This was a bit of an issues when Switzerland joined Schengen and Liechtenstein for some techinical reason could not join till a few months later. As a result the Swiss - Liechtenstein border became an exterior Schengen border, which had to be heavily guarded. Yet there is no border infrastructure there whatsoever. So for a few months they installed a few cameras at the border, and that was it...

[Zven]

Several people have talked about crimes that do not harm anyone, as if they are negligible.
I would just like to point out that the majority of laws and crimes in the world, are about things that do not harm anyone in particular.
Smuggling drugs, for example, or carrying a weapon where it is not allowed. Smoking pot. Printing fake money. Building without planning permission. Having sex with someone slightly too young. Illegal left turns. Insider trading. Failing to declare income for tax purposes. And yes, sneaking across borders. I think if you count, you will find that very few laws and crimes are actually about violence or hurt to anyone. Yet, I think you need to either respect all laws, or none... You cannot cherry-pick just a few.

[jeepbluetj]

Originally Posted by GordMay

One of my favourite Isaac Asimov quotes:
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

Ahhh... The force was strong with Mr. Asimov. May need to go read Foundation again see if the suck fairy has visited it. Unfortunately so much from the 'golden age' of SF hasn't aged all that well.

Originally Posted by Zven

Several people have talked about crimes that do not harm anyone, as if they are negligible.
I would just like to point out that the majority of laws and crimes in the world, are about things that do not harm anyone in particular.
Smuggling drugs, for example, or carrying a weapon where it is not allowed. Smoking pot. Printing fake money. Building without planning permission. Having sex with someone slightly too young. Illegal left turns. Insider trading. Failing to declare income for tax purposes. And yes, sneaking across borders. I think if you count, you will find that very few laws and crimes are actually about violence or hurt to anyone. Yet, I think you need to either respect all laws, or none... You cannot cherry-pick just a few.

I completely disagree. Much of what you cite would/could cause harm. Harm to property: Printing fake money reduces the value of real money - it's essentially theft from everybody using the currency. Same with tax avoidance.
Harm to people: Illegal left turns are illegal because of the wrecks cause by folks making illegal left turns. Psychological damage of the sexually abused underage is reasonably well documented. Building codes exist because people/property was damaged and the rules were changed.

NOBODY is 100% law abiding. I've been drunk in public. (Does a Jimmy Buffet concert count as public?) I speed. Sometimes I roll slowly through a 4-way stop. All pretty minor stuff. Could speeding cause harm - yup.

Sometimes civil disobedience is indeed necessary. One could argue that the whitefolks in the front of the bus were harmed when Rosa sat there. That's a lousy argument imho.

Passport? I'd take mine. Don't see what I gain by not. As long as the political boundaries are managed by separate sovereign nations, they can ask for my passport at the border. They can do anything they want at the border, it's their country.

[svmariane]

Originally Posted by jeepbluetj

Ahhh... The force was strong with Mr. Asimov. May need to go read Foundation again see if the suck fairy has visited it. Unfortunately so much from the 'golden age' of SF hasn't aged all that well.



I completely disagree. Much of what you cite would/could cause harm. Harm to property: Printing fake money reduces the value of real money - it's essentially theft from everybody using the currency. Same with tax avoidance.
Harm to people: Illegal left turns are illegal because of the wrecks cause by folks making illegal left turns. Psychological damage of the sexually abused underage is reasonably well documented. Building codes exist because people/property was damaged and the rules were changed.

NOBODY is 100% law abiding. I've been drunk in public. (Does a Jimmy Buffet concert count as public?) I speed. Sometimes I roll slowly through a 4-way stop. All pretty minor stuff. Could speeding cause harm - yup.

Sometimes civil disobedience is indeed necessary. One could argue that the whitefolks in the front of the bus were harmed when Rosa sat there. That's a lousy argument imho.

Passport? I'd take mine. Don't see what I gain by not. As long as the political boundaries are managed by separate sovereign nations, they can ask for my passport at the border. They can do anything they want at the border, it's their country.

^^^ That! ^^^

[hpeer]

KVB, you are quite right, I was going from Austria, into Switzerland, and crossing Lichtienstein in the process.

But as you say, no Infrastructure, just some guy in a little picket house. He got disgusted with me because my passport had gotten washed in my jeans and was looking pretty ragged.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Zven

Several people have talked about crimes that do not harm anyone, as if they are negligible............

Yet, I think you need to either respect all laws, or none... You cannot cherry-pick just a few.

As with most things in life -It Depends.......

As for the all or nothing approach, somebody famous (but I forget who) stated "laws are for the guidance of wise men and the observance by fools".

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by jeepbluetj

NOBODY is 100% law abiding. I've been drunk in public.

Being drunk in public should not be a punishable offence (and it isn't where I live). I think the embarrassment is enough punishment already...

[jeepbluetj]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Being drunk in public should not be a punishable offence (and it isn't where I live). I think the embarrassment is enough punishment already...

Should I be more embarrassed about being drunk or about admitting I went to a Jimmy Buffet concert?


Drunk in public is one of those laws like "resisting" or "loitering" or "creating a nuisance" that are used by the 5-0 to arrest you whenever/whatever. Highly selective enforcement. (Don't get me wrong, the selective enforcement is when something's a 'problem' the rest of the time it's not. Usually.)

[Sailboatminder]

There is no way you could get entry to New Zealand without a passport. You would be deported on the next flight. This guy sounds like a complete idiot and i hope he is in jail now.

[RaymondR]

There is no way you could get entry to New Zealand without a passport. You would be deported on the next flight. This guy sounds like a complete idiot and i hope he is in jail now.


Interesting, a bunch of NZ criminal types just assisted in severely damaging an Australian immigration detention centre and a large proportion of Australians are wondering why we cannot just put them on and aeroplane and send them back to NZ?

[Sailboatminder]

Yes they did. Am im sure they all had passports and visas when the arrived in Australia. The only reason they are there is because Australia loves them to much and wont let them leave haha.