Tonnage measurement for Canadian registration overseas

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by BobH260

Transport Canada will also accept an "International Tonnage Certificate", your boat builder may be able to supply one, or a local surveyor may be able to supply one.
Bob

* We are taking pleasurecraft here. When reviewing TC rules you must understand that pleasurecraft are covered under Part 3 of the tonnage rules only.

Commercial ships on international voyages are a completely different animal. When reading Transport Canada rule, you must read Transport Canada may accept them. I've seen many rejected as few builders are cogizant of the rules of all the countries they ship to or have their vessels registered in. I've seen many rejected. Rejection is even more likely now that the regional offices which were staffed by the old boys laker captains network, has been consolidated in Ottawa and this one office is now manned by career bureaucrats who are much more likely to reject things that don't exactly match the requirements and are not accompanied by all the proper forms. i.e. Transport Canda's forms, not some "international" form that the the new bureaucrats have never seen applied to a pleasurecraft.

[travellerw]

[QUOTE=boatpoker;2064932]

Originally Posted by travellerw

You are incorrect unless you are referring to s "simple multihull" as defined by Transport Canada. A simple multihull has two pontoons and a deck with no cabin structure at all. Is this the type of cat you are talking about ? This is my business and I have held a Transport Canada appointment for many years. If you have somehow gotten away with this ( simplified method on a cat with cabins) ... you dodged the bullet or your multi-hull is a simple platform on two pontoons without any cabins or structure. See (and read the whole page) Transport Canada's requirements.

The page you linked to says nothing about a multihull being treated different than a mono.. It has some text about the simple method, but doesn't say a Cat is required to be tonnage measured. Can you please post the exact text that makes you think this.

Actually.. Here is the application for registry..
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/wwwdocs/Form...410-10_E_X.pdf

If you scroll down you will find this EXACT TEXT!
" For monohull and multihull vessels not more than 12 metres in length, you can choose to use the "Assigned Formal Tonnage" (non-calculated tonnage). "

For someone who makes this their business, I should think you have actually read the application for registry!

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

As previously noted .. if you are under 12m or are not a monohull this is easily done. Over 12m and and or a monohull you cannot do this yourself.

That's not entirely true. I just registered my Morgan OI 41 (12.65m monhull) last summer and Transport Canada had no issue with me using the "simplified" measurement form that allows me to do all this myself.

The whole thing just required 6 forms, a page of photos, payment of $250 and understanding that while the ship constitutes a total of 64 shares, for Joint ownership you each own 64 shares! ( gov't math, go figure! if my wife and I each own 64 shares, that's a total of 128 shares, except in the gov't eyes!)

not sure what you do for a 24m catamaran though! Best thing to do is call TC, they seem more than eager to help!

[boatpoker]

[QUOTE=travellerw;2065176]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

The page you linked to says nothing about a multihull being treated different than a mono.. It has some text about the simple method, but doesn't say a Cat is required to be tonnage measured. Can you please post the exact text that makes you think this.

Actually.. Here is the application for registry..
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/wwwdocs/Form...410-10_E_X.pdf

If you scroll down you will find this EXACT TEXT!
" For monohull and multihull vessels not more than 12 metres in length, you can choose to use the "Assigned Formal Tonnage" (non-calculated tonnage). "

For someone who makes this their business, I should think you have actually read the application for registry!

If you had scrolled down even further you would have found ....

If the vessel is to be measured using the Simplified Method, this method applies for the following vessels:
Monohull vessels up to and including 15 metres tonnage measurement length (TML) - use Form 4A Simplified Method of Tonnage Measurement [PDF version].
“Monohull vessel” means a vessel having not more than a single tier of deckhouses and/or superstructures (including breaks that are also being regarded as one tier of superstructures) whose total combined length does not exceed 70% of TML to be measured.
Simple multihull vessels up to and including 15 metres tonnage measurement length (TML) - use Form 4B Tonnage Measurement of a Simple Multihull Vessel [PDF version].
“Simple multihull vessel” means a flat platform installed on two or more pontoons.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by pcmm

That's not entirely true. I just registered my Morgan OI 41 (12.65m monhull) last summer and Transport Canada had no issue with me using the "simplified" measurement form that allows me to do all this myself.

The whole thing just required 6 forms, a page of photos, payment of $250 and understanding that while the ship constitutes a total of 64 shares, for Joint ownership you each own 64 shares! ( gov't math, go figure! if my wife and I each own 64 shares, that's a total of 128 shares, except in the gov't eyes!)

not sure what you do for a 24m catamaran though! Best thing to do is call TC, they seem more than eager to help!

First of all at 12.65m you are under the 15m rule. You must also understand that tonnage length has nothing to do with the length of your boat. Tonnage length is from the inner part of the stem to the inner edge of the rudder stock a difference of several feet on your boat.

The 64 share rules go back to the days of the crown sharing in privateer booty and how that loot was divided up between the crown, ship, captain and crew and it all added up to 64 shares.

That same link I provided earlier will also lead you to the full tonnage measurement rules of Part 2, Part 3, Part 4. These are much more complicated and complex than what you seem to understand.

PS. As someone who has taken the Transport Canada tonnage measurement course, received an appointment from the Minister of Transport to perform Tonnage Measurements under CSA 2001 and has taught Transport Canada employee ..... I am sure what to do about a 24m catamaran

[travellerw]

[QUOTE=boatpoker;2065205]

Originally Posted by travellerw

If you had scrolled down even further you would have found ....

If the vessel is to be measured using the Simplified Method, this method applies for the following vessels:
Monohull vessels up to and including 15 metres tonnage measurement length (TML) - use Form 4A Simplified Method of Tonnage Measurement [PDF version].
“Monohull vessel” means a vessel having not more than a single tier of deckhouses and/or superstructures (including breaks that are also being regarded as one tier of superstructures) whose total combined length does not exceed 70% of TML to be measured.
Simple multihull vessels up to and including 15 metres tonnage measurement length (TML) - use Form 4B Tonnage Measurement of a Simple Multihull Vessel [PDF version].
“Simple multihull vessel” means a flat platform installed on two or more pontoons.

You have interpreted something VERY wrong (not surprising since is makes tons of business). Its absolutely clear on the "Application for Registry". Again.. I will post the EXACT TEXT.

" For monohull and multihull vessels not more than 12 metres in length, you can choose to use the "Assigned Formal Tonnage" (non-calculated tonnage). "

You do not NEED to use the simplified method for a boat under 12 meters in length (40ft and under). You simple apply the "Assigned Format Tonnage (non-calculated tonnage)" that fits your boat size!

I'm amazed that someone who claims this as a business does not know this. Under your interpretation, anyone who bought a catamaran with living quarters would require a tonnage measurement. Its simple not true and I know 5 other couples with Cats just like mine that have registered without it!

I encourage anyone who stumbles upon this thread to read the "Application for Registry" and call the vessel registry office. They may be slow to respond but will give you the truth on what needs to be done. Don't trust my posts, or anyone elses. Do your proper research!

[boatpoker]

[QUOTE=travellerw;2065279]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You have interpreted something VERY wrong (not surprising since is makes tons of business). Its absolutely clear on the "Application for Registry". Again.. I will post the EXACT TEXT.

Do you not understand that you must read the entire page
The very simple statement of exclusion at the bottom of the page could not be more clear. Please also try to remember (I know thats hard sometimes) that we are talking about catamarans and specifically a cat that does not fall under the "simple multi-hull rule as shown below as it does have cabin structure.

Simple multihull vessels up to and including 15 metres tonnage measurement length (TML) - use Form 4B Tonnage Measurement of a Simple Multihull Vessel [PDF version].
“Simple multihull vessel” means a flat platform installed on two or more pontoons.

[travellerw]

[QUOTE=boatpoker;2065308]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Do you not understand that you must read the entire page
The very simple statement of exclusion at the bottom of the page could not be more clear. Please also try to remember (I know thats hard sometimes) that we are talking about catamarans and specifically a cat that does not fall under the "simple multi-hull rule as shown below as it does have cabin structure.

Simple multihull vessels up to and including 15 metres tonnage measurement length (TML) - use Form 4B Tonnage Measurement of a Simple Multihull Vessel [PDF version].
“Simple multihull vessel” means a flat platform installed on two or more pontoons.

At this point, I'm done arguing as I believe you have ulterior motives and no matter what I post you will try to dispute as it impacts your personal income. I know the experience and process I went through and how my boat was registered. I was guided through that process by friends with similar experiences. So no, I'm not just one guy that got away with not getting a tonnage measurement on his boat!

Again I encourage anyone to actually contact the Vessel Registry! Get the information from the horses mouth, and not someone on a forum (remember the rules of forums, the more they claim to have X number of years experience, the higher odds they know nothing or are in it for monetary gain). The people at the registry are the people actually stamping the registrations and making the decisions with no monetary ties.

To the original poster.. Did you contact the actual vessel registry? You need to escalate past the front line people to the back line. They will take your name and number and someone will contact you within 48 hours. Believe me, its worth the wait as these are the people who actually do the registration. They can/will help you out! Multiple times they spent 1-2 hours on the phone with me ensuring that I had everything in order.

[boatpoker]

[QUOTE=travellerw;2065322]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

At this point, I'm done arguing as I believe you have ulterior motives and no matter what I post you will try to dispute as it impacts your personal income. I know the experience and process I went through and how my boat was registered. I was guided through that process by friends with similar experiences. So no, I'm not just one guy that got away with not getting a tonnage measurement on his boat!

Again I encourage anyone to actually contact the Vessel Registry! Get the information from the horses mouth, and not someone on a forum (remember the rules of forums, the more they claim to have X number of years experience, the higher odds they know nothing or are in it for monetary gain). The people at the registry are the people actually stamping the registrations and making the decisions with no monetary ties.

To the original poster.. Did you contact the actual vessel registry? You need to escalate past the front line people to the back line. They will take your name and number and someone will contact you within 48 hours. Believe me, its worth the wait as these are the people who actually do the registration. They can/will help you out! Multiple times they spent 1-2 hours on the phone with me ensuring that I had everything in order.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him read all the way to the bottom of the page.

[BobH260]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

* We are taking pleasurecraft here. When reviewing TC rules you must understand that pleasurecraft are covered under Part 3 of the tonnage rules only.

Commercial ships on international voyages are a completely different animal. When reading Transport Canada rule, you must read Transport Canada may accept them. I've seen many rejected as few builders are cogizant of the rules of all the countries they ship to or have their vessels registered in. I've seen many rejected. Rejection is even more likely now that the regional offices which were staffed by the old boys laker captains network, has been consolidated in Ottawa and this one office is now manned by career bureaucrats who are much more likely to reject things that don't exactly match the requirements and are not accompanied by all the proper forms. i.e. Transport Canda's forms, not some "international" form that the the new bureaucrats have never seen applied to a pleasurecraft.

Actually Transport Canada publication, http://publications.gc.ca/collection...34-8-2000E.pdf says,
"If the vessel already has an International Tonnage Certificate you are not required to remeasure the vessel."

It does not say "may" not be required to remeasure the vessel".

This is the kind of BS on this forum that drives people away.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by BobH260

Actually Transport Canada publication, http://publications.gc.ca/collection...34-8-2000E.pdf says,
"If the vessel already has an International Tonnage Certificate you are not required to remeasure the vessel."

It does not say "may" not be required to remeasure the vessel".

This is the kind of BS on this forum that drives people away.

As previously noted, one must read the entire document which I have in three 3" binders. Taking a single sentence out of a document like this without reading the entire thing results in you looking somewhat foolish calling BS on someone who actually knows what they are talking about. This is the second time you have accused me of BS and the second time I I have produced documentation proving me correct. Enough, don't you think ?
I will accept your apology.

[Ungvar]

I can think of a couple of options that might help you out. The first is to call (not email) Transport Canada, and stay on them until somebody can give you an answer. Don't call the regional inspectors, call Ottawa directly, I might start with the Vessel Registry office, they're pretty easy to deal with.

The other thing I would consider is maybe give BV a miss, they have a fairly small presence in Canada, possibly just their Montreal Office. Lloyd's has a much bigger presence in Canada, they have an office in Burlington you can google, no doubt they have freinds in South Africa that can help you out.

Going with a class society might be pricey, so another option might be to get in touch with a Canadian Naval Architecture firm. EYE Consulting out of Halifax or KAM Technologies out of St Catharines are a couple of outfits I know of. If they can't do it for you, they can probably offer better advice than you are likely to find on a web forum.



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[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Ungvar

I can think of a couple of options that might help you out. The first is to call (not email) Transport Canada, and stay on them until somebody can give you an answer. Don't call the regional inspectors, call Ottawa directly,

Regional offices were closed years ago.

[Ungvar]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Regional offices were closed years ago.

Um, no, they didn't. In Ontario alone you have Sarnia- regional HQ, Toronto, St Catharine's, Kingston.

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[Ungvar]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Regional offices were closed years ago.

Regional offices didn't close, regional offices stopped offering vessel registry services, that's why I said, don't call a regional Inspector, call the Vessel Registry office in Ottawa.

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