To Be Armed or Not?

[rebel heart]

The threads that never seem to die:

- Bring guns onboard?
- What's the best anchor?
- Are monohulls better than multis?
- Was Jesus really the messiah?

[TexSail]

The gun thread seems to boil down to two debates:

1) Safety: Are you safer being armed or not? This depends on a number of factors: children or unstable people on board? proficiency in gun use et al. There are a number of situations where a gun could be a lifesaver and a number where it could turn an argument or a shoving match or a prank into a disaster. You be the judge.

2) Legality: Does the jurisdiction in which you are traveling permit you to be armed? I hesitate to do anything that is an affront to the host country. If you can't live with their rules, go somewhere else. JMHO.

[dolango]

I've done a fair bit of blue-water sailing and have never carried a gun aboard.
I always felt that a pirate would likely approach as a fisherman or trader and try and overpower me once hes along side or aboard, before I'd have time to dig in the locker for a gun.
Instead I carry a can of pepper spray that is always within arms reach, the stuff designed to deter bears.
Its a fair sized can that packs a good punch,...I know this because I got the bright idea of demonstrating it to my upstairs neighbor by firing a two second burst against a sheet of plywood in the garage. It had a powerful and direct stream that painted an orange circle about a foot in diameter at six or seven feet distance. We went back inside the house (she lived upstairs and I downstairs) and before too long our eyes started burning and we had to remove the plywood and air out the garage and leave for a while,........the stuff seems to last and traveled through the house quite well.
The one and only time I came close to using it I was anchored off a village and was dozing below in the early evening. I awoke to sounds of movement on deck. Thinking I was being boarded and robbed I grabbed the can, removed the safety tab, and slid the hatch back and popped up the companionway as fast as I could hoping catch them off guard before they could react and blast em!

I scared the ba-jeez-uz out of two young village children whose parents had been aboard for tea and biscuits that afternoon and had sent them to deliver some fruit and fresh baked buns as a gift. They has seen that the boat was dark and didn't want to disturb me so they thought they'd just climb aboard and find a safe place to put it in the cockpit.
The kids were about nine or ten years old, had never seen a can of bear spray, and after the initial scare we all recovered quickly, had a laugh, and shared some tea and enjoyed the fresh baked bread.
The next day when I went ashore the "scary" part of the visit was never mentioned and life went on as ussual.
I was very happy that it was not a gun that I had pulled on the kids. Even though I would not have fired I'm certain the event would have been discussed and my reception ashore the following day would have been quite different.

Cheers, Don

[meyermm]

well said Don

[Kiteboarder]

Wow. Good one there Don. Thanks for sharing.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by meyermm

Nick is now an authority on Australia as well as guns center. I am Australian and live in Australia so I might know a little more about the place than Nick. But then again if you read it on the net it must be true. Farmers have guns. Police have guns. Many citizens have guns. But they are very tightly licensed including where they are allowed to be taken. How many countries use specially trained dogs to search your boat on arrival for items other than drugs?

You're really after my skin I think ;-) Look, I am not an expert on Australia nor on guns, but I don't need that qualification to post here. I can give you sources (I did that for some already) if you want to check my info, you only have to ask (nicely):

The info on Australia that I quoted came from two sources: World Cruising Handbook by Jimmy Cornell and Wikipedia. If you do not agree with the info from Jimmy Cornell, you should take your complaint to him, I merely own his book. If you don't agree with Wikipedia, go ahead and edit it there yourself. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia using the consensus model and requires validated sources for statistics and numbers. The sources used are cited so you can check them. Also, you can check out the "discussion/talk page" by clicking the link at the top. You will find that all pro- and anti-gun colored info gets removed so that only objective information remains. This isn't just some web page from a wacko; why do you insinuate that the Wikipedia page is false? (yes, I am a contributor and editor for Wikipedia and you can be too)

So, I really think you are unfair targeting me as someone who claims to be an expert on Australia gun laws. You kick me but you don't give any info or links that show different info or show that the sources I quoted are wrong. If you don't agree with that 5.2% figure, tell us what the right figure is and cite your source. You have to do better than "I live here so I know better" without even writing what the correct info is!!?? But that's not what you want... you want this thread closed because you can't stand facts and figures that don't support your view. You posted 8 times in this thread but have given no useful info at all and never answer my questions?

I think most posters add valuable info, like Don's (Dolango) post. Think about that situation, what would you do? I you have a gun aboard and already made a security plan, what would have happened if you execute that plan? I already did that for a similar experience told by a cruiser years ago and know I'm okay; the kids would have gotten a scare from the alarm system going off which is about the same effect for them as a can of bear-spray pointed to their faces. I agree fully that those kids should not be faced with a gun.

Also, if you are against guns aboard, you must realize that you can make a plan anyway. You better. I even dare to state that if you refuse to even think about it, you also don't have a plan for fire aboard, man overboard or abandon ship. If so, it's time to start thinking and making them because it is really part of seamanship.

cheers,
Nick.

[Pelagic]

Nick…your patience at not taking the bait by those who wish to personalize “pro-choice” about being armed … impresses me.

You are a cool customer under stress and obviously identify whether it is a real or recreational criticism before firing any virtual guns.

Gentlemen, there is no correct answer on this subject as it is so dependant on an individual’s ability to assess and manage their psychological reaction during the stress of an unauthorized boarding at 2am. From that self analysis as well as local conditions, one should develop a security plan that works for them.

At remote anchorages, I have experienced more than one unauthorized late night boarding and they have run the gauntlet from drunken locals wishing to start a party or sing Xmas Carols to actual robbery.

Setting off a security Alarm and spreader lights then challenging the strangers to identify themselves from your “Safe Haven” down below… usually diffuses the situation into apologies and laughter 99% of the time.

In case of bad intent: the next step still voiced from down below is spoken loudly in both English and local language… “Leave the boat or you will be hurt!”

At that point we closed up and waited for their move. After repeated warnings and hearing the noise of doors and deck lockers being tried we fired a single shot out the porthole. This caused them to quickly leave (with our gas tank).

At no time, were we ever inclined to leave our safe haven and challenge them outside.

At no time, would we ever consider the value of any deck equipment to be a justification for going on the offensive and taking a life.

We were prepared to defend ourselves in case of a forcible entry into our safe haven but luckily that never happened.

For those who wish to consider carrying arms, here are some practical suggestions that have worked for me:

As Nick says, dealing with local authorities over having arms in transit is a matter of presentation and professionalism. It is a fluid situation depending on individual assessment and local issues.

Providing a detailed list of arms/serial numbers and ammo which is already in a secure and bondable locker that shows previous bonding stickers from other countries is the very best way to present your arms management.

Shotguns are less suspect than handguns since they are not considered a concealed weapon.

If their first reaction is to have the arms taken into custody, never argue!

Just prepare copies of your arms list on official ship’s stamped paper for them to sign.

With local signatory to witness… package and seal arms and ammos in strong boxes that can be wired secure with customs seal.

Use bubble wrap and silica packs to keep protected for possible long storage.

Politely request that you would like to see where the arms will be stored so that you can inform your lawyer. (take detail photos of them there and the witness)

Apologize to supervisor for putting them to such an inconvenience and try to strike up a friendly relationship as a tourist visitor to their country.

Just before you are ready to leave that port of entry… visit that supervisor again to discuss the logistics of returning your arms at your planned last port and to ask his advice if there are any dangerous areas that you should avoid in your cruise, or be concerned about.

This is where your professional and friendly attitude often pays off as he will do a threat assessment, help you to problem solve logistics and more often than not decide to return them (in bond).

I have even had the supervisor return arms, give me a bonded sticker to put on just before I arrive at their last port for clearing out, because of his desire to keep us protected from local rascals.

In Israel they just laughed when I showed them my arms list

[Kiteboarder]

Pelagic: Great post. So you actually used was a shotgun through the porthole to scare the robbers away?

[Cheechako]

A woman who survived a deadly attack by pirates off the Thai coast has described the horror of her nine-hour ordeal at sea, recalling how she was "trussed up naked like a chicken" and forced to walk in her murdered husband's blood.
Linda Robertson (57) and her husband Malcolm (64) were asleep in their yacht near the Buntang Islands when three Burmese men armed with hammers and machetes boarded the vessel. Police believe they bludgeoned Mr Robertson before slitting his throat and throwing him into the sea.
Wife tells of terrifying ordeal when pirates stripped her and made her watch husband die - World News, Frontpage - Herald.ie

[James S]

Sad story

[keelbolts]

I wear a seat belt when I drive my car.

I carried a parachute when I flew.

I wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle.

I wear eye protection and ear plugs when I use power tools.

I take a life vest when I sail.

I wear a harness when I go offshore.

I carry a gun ashore or afloat.

It's all about safety. There really isn't much to discuss.

[Cadence]

I believe that's a question that can't be answered. What part of the world, what are your ports of call. Pardon me, but it seems like a dumb question. Here in the US would be one thing,Australia, the UK, or were ever might be entirely different.

[Kiteboarder]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I believe that's a question that can't be answered. What part of the world, what are your ports of call. Pardon me, but it seems like a dumb question. Here in the US would be one thing,Australia, the UK, or were ever might be entirely different.

Well, it's not really a dumb question. It's a general question subject to many variables. No need to try and burn.

[Kiteboarder]

If I wanted a specific answer, about a specific port in a specific country, I would've said so.

[Kiteboarder]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

A woman who survived a deadly attack by pirates off the Thai coast has described the horror of her nine-hour ordeal at sea, recalling how she was "trussed up naked like a chicken" and forced to walk in her murdered husband's blood.
Linda Robertson (57) and her husband Malcolm (64) were asleep in their yacht near the Buntang Islands when three Burmese men armed with hammers and machetes boarded the vessel. Police believe they bludgeoned Mr Robertson before slitting his throat and throwing him into the sea.
Wife tells of terrifying ordeal when pirates stripped her and made her watch husband die - World News, Frontpage - Herald.ie

I just read the story... Man, that is sad.