Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-08-2017, 14:33   #31
bmz
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Irwin Citation 34
Posts: 192
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

In addition to getting a gold star in terminology, terminology can be important. Just like spelling and punctuation can be important, depending on context. If you are writing a paper in college, a brief to a court, or a letter to a potential client, spelling and punctuation are important.

But the Internet has long since gotten rid of the schoolmarm mentality. If you correct someone's spelling or punctuation in an Internet debate or discussion, you have lost that debate; and it will generally be recognized. We generally do not proofread our comments to make sure they will get in A in school. In these informal debates and the discussions that we have here, as well as others on the Internet, it is substance that counts.

Therefore, I am dismayed at many of the comments here, as well as the original discussion. Dockhead and I were having a debate/discussion on techniques for dealing with multiple targets in a different thread on this forum; when he made the mistake of attacking my terminology. I responded with the fact that his criticism put form over substance and, in the context of the discussion, whether I had used schoolmarm approved terminology was irrelevant.

Yes, terminology can be important; and we should all strive to use the correct terminology, just like we should strive to use correct punctuation and spelling. But where you are having a substantive debate/discussion and the terminology employed does not alter the substance, responding by attacking the other party's terminology, simply shows that you do not have any substantive response.
bmz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 14:38   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 530
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Interesting, I have seen a 60 oared war canoe in New Zealand that looked to be traveling at around 15-20kn, about 70ft LOA and weighing several tons (that was just the crew). They may well stand on you but not in the way the coll regs mean! That was definitely a power driven vessel.
At that speed they could well be an overtaking vessel and as such be required to stay clear regardless of the normally stand on status.
__________________
2 Dogs
justwaiting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 14:42   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Alert Bay, Vancouver Island
Boat: 35ft classic ketch/yawl.
Posts: 1,980
Images: 4
Send a message via Skype™ to roland stockham
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelkara View Post
But this is not correct:

Rule 25:
(b)(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.

So if a vessel under oars is displaying lights then it should be the same as a sailboat, not a power boat.

Rule 3 does not define a "vessel under oars". I don't buy the argument that oars count as "machinery" making it a power vessel ... The explicit use of lights appropriate for a sailboat seem to contradict that ... apart from having to convince yourself that a paddle is "machinery".

Although people seem to treat rowing/paddle boats as stand-on I can't see where in the rules it states that. They seem to be totally ignored and treated like flotsam in the steering and sailing rules ... which I suppose would make them stand-on ... except at night.
Not sure that this counts as BASIC coll regs and don't want to hijack the thread. You make a good point about the definition of a power driven vessel being one propelled by machinery. If that is the case the coll regs do not appear to apply to a vessel propelled by oars or paddles except for the provision for carrying lights so effectively they are considered the same as a raft, as such all vessels must keep clear?
While this may be the stance of the col regs as written the ref to vessels with a speed under 7kn is, I would argue, significant. In the view of the coregs it would seem the reference to vessels driven by oars intends to mean small craft in confined waters. Where a vessel does not fit the criteria, as skipper, I would tend to look at how the vessel performs compared to others. So in a larger paddle driven craft capable of speeds in excess of 7kn and able to maneuver on any course I would say I was no more restricted that a power driven vessel and, as such, would give way to vessels more restricted but the regs do not give clear direction on this. I suspect that in drafting the rules nobody considered boats driven by oars other than small rowboats and canoes. Should we propose the IMO takes a look at this and gives a ruling?
roland stockham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 14:57   #34
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliegrau View Post
I think there is going to be a lot of traffic on this thread. It is important conceptually to understand that except for the circumstance Suijin mentions regarding downstream river traffic, the COLREGs set responsibilities, but do not confer any rights or privileges. In meeting, crossing, and passing situations (and really, at all other times as well) the captain should be thinking of his responsibilities....not his entitlements...there are no entitlements. Use of words like "right of way" and "privileged vessel" are misleading, especially to less experienced boaters. If you have a question about a given situation, the first thing to do is read the COLREGS. If the COLREGS aren't clear, or you are unsure which one applies, that may be the time to post a query. Safe boating!
I'm sorry but I really have an issue with this. I understand that Colregs use stand-on and give-way. I have fully understood these terms all my boating life. And I believe anyone familiar with colregs understands them.

Similarly, anyone who understand colregs even at a basic level, should understand that "right-of-way", nor "privileged" implies a right without exception, to stand on. That is just dumb. I think this whole discussion is important only to those who wish to ponder their navel on terminology.

For gods sakes, get out of your heads and arm chairs, quit getting your nighty in a knot over terminology, and raise a freaking sail. That should clear the nonsense.

There is no way colregs requires a give way small boat to change coarse to avoid collision from 5 nm out. The small boat can change course any number of ways at 5 nm apart. As the vessels approach, at a point where a maneuver specifically required to avoid collision, colregs come into play.

It is only this maneuver, that has to be in such a manner to be obvious to the other vessel.

The larger "stand-on", "privileged", "right-of-way", or "big mother $%#$%" vessel (whatever you wish to call it) is only obligated to take evasive action, when it is clear, the small vessel no longer has sufficient room to take action to avoid collision on their own. In a perpendicular crossing, that would be about 3 boat lengths (of the smaller vessel) away. What action can the large vessel take at that time? Sound 5 short blasts. If they see resulting flotsam, order "reverse all", to stop and assist picking up survivors if the small boat is sunk. How can a large boat captain make a course change to avoid a small boat 5 miles away, where there are small boats every 1/4 nm away in all directions, zipping in all directions, willy nilly? They can't possibly, and nobody in their right mind would expect them to.
ramblinrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 15:04   #35
Registered User
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
Images: 69
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

So what if you're the stand on vessel, sailing close hauled to windward, required to maintain course and speed and you get headed?
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 15:17   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 34
Arrow Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Me, I'm never in a hurry to go anywhere so I give way to everybody and make my direction of passage very clear. No good saying 'I had right of way' as your swimming for shore.
skiggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 15:51   #37
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiggy View Post
Me, I'm never in a hurry to go anywhere so I give way to everybody and make my direction of passage very clear. No good saying 'I had right of way' as your swimming for shore.
And that would be your error, if you are the stand on vessel. Other vessels in close proximity are expecting you to follow the rules, and not doing so may be a factor in causing a collision that you will be found at partial fault in.
ramblinrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 16:14   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,092
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiggy View Post
... so I give way to everybody and make my direction of passage very clear...
Several times I've given way at the last moment when it became clear the give-way vessel was on auto-pilot with no one on watch. I particularly recall one incident, watching the crewman of a trawler climbing on deck, coffee mug in hand, heading for the wheelhouse, while we spun around in a lazy circle to let the unmanned vessel pass ahead instead of T-boning us; he wasn't fishing, just steaming out to sea.

Much easier in a small vessel to simply tack away before the COLLREGS kick in, long before collision is even contemplated. Sailboats tack all the time.
NevisDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 16:16   #39
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumping around the Caribbean
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,625
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmz View Post
The Coast Guard Auxiliary is the uniformed branch of the Coast Guard primarily responsible for education and boat safety training. The author is a widely recognized expert and mariner safety author. His newest book, Suddenly Overboard: True Stories of Sailors in Fatal Trouble, is based on years of studying sailing incidents leading to either rescue or fatality. He has also worked with the American Red Cross and the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary writing other boating safety books.
He's a writer. He's never been a professional mariner. And I don't see any evidence of him being a "widely recognized expert". Publishing books and articles does not make you widely recognized expert, it makes you a published author.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmz View Post
My quotation may have been an "excerpt" but I included the citation to my source material. In this regard, I would appreciate it if you would provide us with a citation to your source material.
Gladly:

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesFAQ


Quote:
Originally Posted by bmz View Post
Assuming that your excerpt is not qualified in the source material, it supports the view that "give way" is used more frequently than yield the "right-of-way" or "keep out of the way." But the point is, in context there is no substantive difference. They all mean the same; but if you want a gold star in terminology, by all means always use "give way.""
The excerpt makes the direct point that "right of way" only exists in limited circumstances. If you want to flop around trying to play semantic games to try and support your point, that's your right.

And thanks for the gold star. You're giving out a lot of them these last few days.
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 16:31   #40
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
So what if you're the stand on vessel, sailing close hauled to windward, required to maintain course and speed and you get headed?
If you must fall off due to a header, the give way vessel must continue to give way. If the give way vessel cannot or does not within the minimum safe distance for them to do so, you must take evasive action (luff up, tack, or whatever you can) to avoid the pending collision.

This creates a real dilemma on the race course (which has other special rules for sailboats in close proximity), but if you claim to have been fouled and forced to take emergency action and the offending vessel skipper doesn't do his turn(s) and claims you had sufficient room and did not need to take the evasive action you did, then all you can really do is hope the protest committee sides with you.

In addition, I thank the offending skipper for bringing to my attention my lack of spatial awareness so next time I will hold my course and speed instead of turning off, and oh by the way, I carry a large anchor on my bow roller and know an excellent glass and gelcoat man. ;-)

(They generally do not foul me again.)
ramblinrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 16:56   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 34
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
And that would be your error, if you are the stand on vessel. Other vessels in close proximity are expecting you to follow the rules, and not doing so may be a factor in causing a collision that you will be found at partial fault in.
Point is I don't let them get in 'close proximity' of me, I move as soon as I see them.
skiggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 17:01   #42
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumping around the Caribbean
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,625
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
I'm sorry but I really have an issue with this. I understand that Colregs use stand-on and give-way. I have fully understood these terms all my boating life. And I believe anyone familiar with colregs understands them.

Similarly, anyone who understand colregs even at a basic level, should understand that "right-of-way", nor "privileged" implies a right without exception, to stand on.
That is just dumb. I think this whole discussion is important only to those who wish to ponder their navel on terminology.

For gods sakes, get out of your heads and arm chairs, quit getting your nighty in a knot over terminology, and raise a freaking sail. That should clear the nonsense.
Just not true. I've had more conversations with fellow boaters who don't understand this than I can count. Yes, experienced boaters understand it better (I hope), but there are countless boaters who don't.

I was sensitized to it by an experience my ex-brother-in-law recounted to me about 10 years ago. He's a very successful attorney specializing in international insurance law, a law professor at a leading law school, and has sailed extensively in the UK and USA. He's not a dumb guy. But he had an overly simplistic understanding of COLREGS, used the term "right of way" and understood it in a way that gave it expanded rights, similar as Dockhead pointed out to automobile traffic laws. He almost got himself and his family killed as a result of it. When I explained the difference to him he blinked a few times and his eyes lit up and he nodded. He also went back and read the rules much more carefully.

It's not just semantics. There's a very important difference between "right of way" and "stand on". Perhaps you've never been in a situation where it was directly manifest and that's why you think it's "silly." But it's not, and it's relevant in many, many circumstances.
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 17:03   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,092
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Oops, sorry Skiggy, my post was meant to be in total agreement with yours but I now see it could be read the other way.
NevisDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 17:17   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 34
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Oops, sorry Skiggy, my post was meant to be in total agreement with yours but I now see it could be read the other way.
No sweat Nevis, aren't these people serious? Boating is meant to be fun,

use your eyes and ears and enjoy the wind in your face and most of all use

your head and you won't go far wrong. Leave your troubles for when
your back ashore.
skiggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2017, 18:34   #45
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 6,008
Re: Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions

A collision at sea is a serious matter. Avoiding them is necessary to enjoying life on the water.

I agree with those who argue that semantics matter. The common understanding of "right of way" is so at odds with the obligations defined in the Colregs that the IMO got rid of the phrase entirely. They did not do that on a whim. They did it precisely because too many people applied their own definition to it and not the one intended by the Colregs.
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
navigation

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Basic Questions About Cruising Billie Seamanship & Boat Handling 10 04-05-2011 11:00
Very Basic Marine Toilet Questions alanrothenbush Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 41 22-02-2011 07:27
Beginning Boat Types - Basic Questions Badkyd General Sailing Forum 8 27-04-2010 18:30
Some really basic sailing questions.... merlin General Sailing Forum 26 31-05-2007 05:41
Basic Perkins 4.108M questions alchemy Engines and Propulsion Systems 12 07-05-2006 13:40

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.