The Med and Taxes

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by tom1263

Gerald, that the Point. The only way, the boat is registered to a company in Jersey. Only then it's a temporary use in the EU.

I'm afraid this doesn't look good..

You don't need a Company to get Jersey Boat reg nor be personally resident - you just need the right passport (EU or Commonwealth).....so OP could be doing anything.

But whether company or personal reg, the Customs will look through any arrangements to whoever owns the company and / or is operating the boat - and they have "anti-taking the piss" provisions to slap a bill on ya!.

A few more details from OP would be of interest, especially on how non EU he personally is (Primarily in residence, but also passport would come into it insofar as with an EU passport yer gotta be prepared to prove that don't actually still reside in the EU!).

That simply stuff the boat in a Jersey company (and keep schtum? ) approach to avoid VAT disappeared 25(?) years ago.........whilst not impossible the French are trying it on by trying to tax non EU folks simply for arriving in the EU by making up own rules, nonetheless I would be surprised as they have always been kinda attached to the rule of law. On the upside, if that is the case then pretty much anything with a French flag on it becomes "finders keepers" . Well, at least to some .

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

That simply stuff the boat in a Jersey company (and keep schtum? ) approach to avoid VAT disappeared 25(?) years ago.........whilst not impossible the French are trying it on by trying to tax non EU folks simply for arriving in the EU by making up own rules, nonetheless I would be surprised as they have always been kinda attached to the rule of law. On the upside, if that is the case then pretty much anything with a French flag on it becomes "finders keepers" . Well, at least to some .

There's absolutely no evidence that the French are " trying anything" on. The French adhere to the TIR provisions , and in my experience are fairly laid back towards foreign boaters as long as you ain't taking the piss or are a " Brit" !! , maybe they equate the two,perhaps.

Dave

[tom1263]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The registration of a leisure boat , wrapped up in a company , doesn't not protect a EU tax resident from VAT , temporary or otherwise. This is a common fallacy.

I disagree, the EU customs (border control) does not believe that the company was founded exclusively for tax evasion. That's not their job, they have to control the correctness of the papers and other regulations.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tom1263

I disagree, the EU customs (border control) does not believe that the company was founded exclusively for tax evasion. That's not their job, they have to control the correctness of the papers and other regulations.

I'm sorry, but I have first hand experiences. If they believe you are attempting a vat fraud, they may decide to seize or fine you. Unlike other crime, you are guilty till proven innocent, ie the burden of proof falls on you.

It is not sufficient, simply that the paperwork is correct, it must actually " be" correct

Dave

[tom1263]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

You don't need a Company to get Jersey Boat reg nor be personally resident - you just need the right passport (EU or Commonwealth).....so OP could be doing anything.

Yes the right passport.... But i'm German and i have contacted the EU customs in Germany for a similar case. I want to buy a boat outside the EU and stay longer than 5 years there to sailing in the mediterenean and caribic without EU customs problems.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tom1263

Yes the right passport.... But i'm German and i have contacted the EU customs in Germany for a similar case. I want to buy a boat outside the EU and stay longer than 5 years there to sailing in the mediterenean and caribic without EU customs problems.

if you buy a boat outside the EU and its stays outside the EU , then you have to do nothing with VAT. WHen eventually you return to the EU , you will immediately have to pay VAT on the financial value of the boat at the time of importation, that vale is arrived by agreement with customs.

you do not get any grace period as a EU tax resident. well you do 3 -days!

dave

[tom1263]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

if you buy a boat outside the EU and its stays outside the EU , then you have to do nothing with VAT. WHen eventually you return to the EU , you will immediately have to pay VAT on the financial value of the boat at the time of importation, that vale is arrived by agreement with customs.

you do not get any grace period as a EU tax resident. well you do 3 -days!

dave

Yes, that is the problem. If you have a boat in the Turkey, you can never visit Italia without a risk, no matter if the boat was previously (more the 3 years) taxed in EU.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tom1263

Yes, that is the problem. If you have a boat in the Turkey, you can never visit Italia without a risk, no matter if the boat was previously (more the 3 years) taxed in EU.

well… what you describing is knwen as RTR ( returned Goods Relief) which is normally 3 years. but can contact customs and by agreement get it extended.

but… since there is in effect no official record of the boat being outside europe nor can they check anything , once you have he original vat documents you should be fine

dave

[tom1263]

If you have the original vat documents, all is fine and after 3 years you need only an friendly customs officer. They call this "exceptional circumstance" and they have always a administrative discretion. Unfortunately, there is no legal right. But if you buy a EU taxed boat outside the EU then you lost the RTR....

No official record: I don't know there are a lot of problems with the second owner, 30 years and 3 owners later, without original documents.

[goboatingnow]

Yes but in practice, since you have a EU registered boat, no one knows where its been, all you say is it never left the EU. once you have some original documentation of at very least previous EU registration ( or current EU registration) RTR is rarely an issue for private yachts.

advice: never go looking for a friendly customs officer

Dave

[jckb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Residency , for tax purposes is actually much more complex then just 90 days , EU tax residency can occur on property ownership, etc etc m not just from establishing domicile.

Dave, I think you'll find that in the case of "Means of Transport" (MoT) tax residency is not the issue. To be more exact, according to HMRC (their interpretation of the law):

The vessel must be:

• registered outside the customs territory of the EU in the name of a person established outside the customs territory of the EU. If it is not registered it must belong to someone who has their normal place of residence outside the customs territory of EU, and
• be used by a non EU resident (there are limited exceptions . . .)

And to add a bit of fun to this, the Channel Islands are regarded as within the EU customs union, but outside the VAT area! Which is why (most) Channel Island residents can't use their non-VAT boats in the EU. For MoT import purposes, it is possible to be a tax resident of an EU country, but not a resident!

Furthermore tax residency on new means of transport can require local registration of the boat ,acquiring local competency certification where applicable and the payment of various taxes outside of vat.

Again, tax residency is not necessarily the issue here. What matters is how long the MoT stays in the country. If it is to stay longer than 180 days continuously, a country may require it's presence to be notified so that local circulation taxes can be levied.

This is certainly the case with cars, but it is very rarely the case with boats (since circulation taxes on all boats are usually gathered as the circulate anyway). EU countries can not force re-registration if the intention is for the MoT to return to its original country of registration.

Spain was working outside the remit of the EU when it tried to force re-registration of boats owned by tax residents which were spending more than 180 days in the country. No longer do they require re-registration.



It's a bit of a minefield, but rarely affects boaters who do their homework before the event!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by jckb

And to add a bit of fun to this, the Channel Islands are regarded as within the EU customs union, but outside the VAT area! Which is why (most) Channel Island residents can't use their non-VAT boats in the EU. For MoT import purposes, it is possible to be a tax resident of an EU country, but not a resident!

Whilst I don't disagree with most of what you say, the bit in bold is a new one on me . and everyone else here who goes to France!

Having said that, certainly the French do check on occasion whether Jersey resident folks on boats are overstaying their welcome (Both VAT free and also whether they have stayed long enough to be a tax resident). In practice as long as you (and the boat if not VAT paid) bugger off at the end of the season then no problem, whether that is a formal 6 months I have no idea - but in practice the season ain't 6 months, at least not for most! Also useful to be able to show that you do live in the CI (and not simply living in France - on boat or elsewhere - under the radar).

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jckb

Dave, I think you'll find that in the case of "Means of Transport" (MoT) tax residency is not the issue. To be more exact, according to HMRC (their interpretation of the law): And to add a bit of fun to this, the Channel Islands are regarded as within the EU customs union, but outside the VAT area! Which is why (most) Channel Island residents can't use their non-VAT boats in the EU. For MoT import purposes, it is possible to be a tax resident of an EU country, but not a resident!

Again, tax residency is not necessarily the issue here. What matters is how long the MoT stays in the country. If it is to stay longer than 180 days continuously, a country may require it's presence to be notified so that local circulation taxes can be levied.

This is certainly the case with cars, but it is very rarely the case with boats (since circulation taxes on all boats are usually gathered as the circulate anyway). EU countries can not force re-registration if the intention is for the MoT to return to its original country of registration.

Spain was working outside the remit of the EU when it tried to force re-registration of boats owned by tax residents which were spending more than 180 days in the country. No longer do they require re-registration.

I've tried to cover all this stuff in http://jimbsail.info/going-foreign/regs-paperwork and the linked page /time-abroad .

It's a bit of a minefield, but rarely affects boaters who do their homework before the event!

Ogh I agree with you re circulation taxes , local registration etc. then180 days is the issue for means of transport. But there are several factors that complicate this in different countries.

But I beleive in most EU countries its 90 days to reregister cars.

And yes it's is a minefield and yes you need to do your homework , but the circulation taxes issues are rarely an issue for cruising sailors.

And this is all seperate to vat.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Whilst I don't disagree with most of what you say, the bit in bold is a new one on me . and everyone else here who goes to France!

Having said that, certainly the French do check on occasion whether Jersey resident folks on boats are overstaying their welcome (Both VAT free and also whether they have stayed long enough to be a tax resident). In practice as long as you (and the boat if not VAT paid) bugger off at the end of the season then no problem, whether that is a formal 6 months I have no idea - but in practice the season ain't 6 months, at least not for most! Also useful to be able to show that you do live in the CI (and not simply living in France - on boat or elsewhere - under the radar).

I beleive Channel Islands residents have 90 days grace in the EU. It could be 180 , but I think its 90


Dave

[jckb]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Whilst I don't disagree with most of what you say, the bit in bold is a new one on me . and everyone else here who goes to France!

I think, as long as most people are clear that there are two sorts of rules:
(1) Rules affecting people - immigration stuff
(2) Rules affecting things - in this case, Means of Transport - customs stuff
Then the minefield becomes easier to negotiate.

First, you establish the people bit. Are you Non-EU, EU, Schengen.
For tax within the EU you go a step further; Country, and tax residency within that country. This has no necessary link with your own nationality. Finally, if you're a European citizen within the EU, you have entitlements to benefits if you become a resident in another EU country.

Which-ever people category you fit defines what you can do with your cars and boats and planes.

You Channel Islanders don't fit these categories - a weird lot indeed, and I'm pretty sure the French have decided it's not worth the cost of policing your entitlements:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Channel Islands take part in the EU freedom of movement of goods but not people, services or capital. They are outside the VAT area since they have no VAT, but are inside the customs union. Channel Islanders are British citizens and hence European citizens. However, they are not entitled to participate in the freedom of movement of people or services unless they are directly connected (through birth, descent from a parent or grandparent) with the United Kingdom.

One day, I suspect that HMRC may find their insistence that the CI are not within the EU may be challenged! No more C1331!

The French already appear to accept this is the case