Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-08-2013, 12:45   #1
Registered User
 
Crimea Cruiser's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Crimea
Boat: Colin Archer 36', steel
Posts: 358
Sticky Issue

Russian national bought elasped documented boat ( 2010 exp.) from Maryland broker. Wanted to take boat back to Russia. Now has changed mind and wants to sell in USA. Problem is as foreign national he can not reinstate documentation. Nor did he register and title boat in any USA state. So how does he sell boat with valid transferable title to boat to American buyer? So far NY, NJ, MD have rejected attempts to title boat with just bill of sale and copy of expired documentation from PO. Broker offered assistance, but now is silent once told having problems getting legit USA title for boat.
Is there a way out of this mess for him? Trying to help him, but finding no good solution. Even if he got delisted USCG paperwork from PO to document in Russia, they ( Russia ) would want boat there before documenting, and defeats attempts to sell boat in USA. Boat seems in limbo at present.
__________________

__________________
If it floats it's a boat, or perhaps it's f#cal matter!
Crimea Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 12:54   #2
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,029
Re: Sticky Issue

"So far NY, NJ, MD have rejected attempts to title boat with just bill of sale and copy of expired documentation from PO."

And all of those states will tell you specifically what paper work they need and what paperwork your did not supply. So the question is, why did they reject the attempt to register the boat. Most, if not all, states will not allow you to register a motor vehicle unless you have a residential address in that state, and since Russia has resisted all attempts atr conquest and annexation, it may simply be a problem that yourRussian does not have a valid residency in any US state.

If the boat has been sitting around someplace for a couple of years, clear title also may be a problem since storage liens may have been filed against a boat.

I doubt you need an admiralty lawyer. More likely you just need to ask the right questions and get a better translation. And a complete one.
__________________

__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 13:05   #3
Registered User
 
Crimea Cruiser's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Crimea
Boat: Colin Archer 36', steel
Posts: 358
Re: Sticky Issue

Correct. The Russian does not have residency in any state. Reason why no state will give him state title. No liens on boat. Surprisingly he has been getting away with sailing up and down east coast without any stops by authorities, but now has hauled and returned to Russia. But still looks to sell boat In USA if can get transferable title some how.
__________________
If it floats it's a boat, or perhaps it's f#cal matter!
Crimea Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 13:15   #4
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,029
Re: Sticky Issue

With no residency and no US citizenship, I suspect the simple answer is that the only title he can get is Russian title from Russia.

Ooops, he didn't get that and maybe cannot get it while the boat is in the US? Then eventually the boat may be seized because he did not remove it from the country, did not register it, did not get a cruising permit with extensions. Considering the cost of a seizure and penalties he may be better off abandoning the boat and letting a yard put a warehouseman's lien on it and take the title.

Depending on the size and age of the boat, perhaps he can sell it to someone in a state that doesn't require title, but good luck with trying to find that. I think most states would require a notarized bill of sale from the PO at this point, so "creative" paperwork may also be difficult. He might be able to sell the boat to someone else who could then re-title it, but I'm thinking he would have to sell the boat "as is" and agree to have the entire purchase price placed into a US escrow account and held until title could be re-established here. Inconvenient, but it should be possible. And of course, that means a lower price for the boat, but that's still better than seizure and penalties.

If, as I suspect? The Russian did not pay sales tax when he bought the boat, the sale was probably taxable in Maryland and they may assert a tax lien on the boat if the purchase and title process gets back to them. If there is any chance of that issue, a potential buyer might also ask that be cleared first, which could mean paying taxes and penalties to Maryland. (Rashly guessing, because I have no idea how the folks in Maryland tax boats.)
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 13:20   #5
Registered User
 
Crimea Cruiser's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Crimea
Boat: Colin Archer 36', steel
Posts: 358
Re: Sticky Issue

yes. I think the later suggestion is what he will try to do. Will try to find USA lawyer that deals with such issues to give advice, or hold escrow.
__________________
If it floats it's a boat, or perhaps it's f#cal matter!
Crimea Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 13:46   #6
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Sticky Issue

I would have thought the easiest way would be to sell it to an American as an unregistered boat. No expert on US boat reg (State or USCG) but I would be very surprised if the Registries could not deal with an unregistered boat, must be a squillion of all sizes that lie unloved in backyards for years with Registrations expired and / or last owners long since walked, and some of them get brought back to life........the price will likely be taking a hit on the sale price.

Alternatively he could go corporate reg in the UK (or one of the offshore jurisdictions) and then re-reg back into the USA INO the new owner, but quite some cost for that.

I guess the work around is finding someone in the US he could trust to put boat in their name, or even onto the UK SSR (if he lived in the UK could do that himself).
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 14:41   #7
Registered User
 
Crimea Cruiser's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Crimea
Boat: Colin Archer 36', steel
Posts: 358
Re: Sticky Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I would have thought the easiest way would be to sell it to an American as an unregistered boat. No expert on US boat reg (State or USCG) but I would be very surprised if the Registries could not deal with an unregistered boat, must be a squillion of all sizes that lie unloved in backyards for years with Registrations expired and / or last owners long since walked, and some of them get brought back to life........the price will likely be taking a hit on the sale price.

Alternatively he could go corporate reg in the UK (or one of the offshore jurisdictions) and then re-reg back into the USA INO the new owner, but quite some cost for that.

I guess the work around is finding someone in the US he could trust to put boat in their name, or even onto the UK SSR (if he lived in the UK could do that himself).
Only two legal titles to boat in USA as far as I am aware.

One is USCG documentation. ( which expired in 2010, and he can not reinstate as foreign national )

Second is a State Vehicle Title of Ownership. To get this one must have prior title of ownership from PO signed over, or builder's certification of new manufactured boat previous untitled. As he has neither a simple notarized bill of sale from PO does not equate legal title to boat on state level.

Sticky wicket!
__________________
If it floats it's a boat, or perhaps it's f#cal matter!
Crimea Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 08:46   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Indies
Boat: Burger 74' motor yacht, 65 foot 12 metre, Flicka and sailing dinghy
Posts: 635
The key is having a notarized bill of sale from the prior owner. With that the OP could register in Delaware. Not required to be Delaware resident, just that Delaware be state of primary use.
I just registered a boat in California as a non-resident.
I do not believe a state, or at least all states, require you to be a resident. Just to have a local address where boat is kept so they can tax you more.
www.beautifulsevastopol.com
__________________
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
dohenyboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 08:50   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Indies
Boat: Burger 74' motor yacht, 65 foot 12 metre, Flicka and sailing dinghy
Posts: 635
Also, if the OP wishes now to resell the boat, he might just be able to do another USCG bill of sale. A documentation company should know how to do this.
A non citizen is not prohibited from owning a boat. Just from registering that ownership.
__________________
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
dohenyboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 09:09   #10
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,373
Re: Sticky Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by dohenyboy View Post
A non citizen is not prohibited from owning a boat. Just from registering that ownership.
To clarify, a foreigner can state register a boat but they cannot USCG document a boat.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 09:15   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,373
Re: Sticky Issue

Not sure how one gets around the issue of a FL mailing address but the state of Florida not only allows state registration of a boat owned, documented and registered in another state but actually insists that a boat registered in another state also pay FL registration if it stays in FL over 90 days.

Have not researched if the requirement also applies to foreign owned boats but a call to FL revenue office they indicated boats owned by non-US citizens could be registered in FL.

I would think that a copy of the previous USCG documentation, even if expired, should go a long way towards selling the boat.

And as someone pointed out, there are companies that specialize in documentation of boats. I would contact one of them. A google search for "USCG documentation services" turns up several.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 11:32   #12
Registered User
 
CaptTom's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Southern Maine
Boat: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 969
Re: Sticky Issue

I think the key here is to get the new, US owner to do the paperwork. I just documented a boat that had an long-expired documentation from a PO. The immediate PO had registered it in RI (a place the boat never was) for some dodgy tax reasons. The CG documentation web site has details on specifically what's needed, but I think a paper trail proving that the new owner legally owns the boat, and the old documentation, should do the trick.

The problem, of course, is getting a new owner to take the risk of buying the boat pending the documentation being accepted. Some research ahead of time would help. I got very good service just calling the USCG documentation center on the phone. I wouldn't shy away from a good deal just because the PO was foreign, as long as I knew I would be able to document it. And the escrow account sounds like it could work, too.
__________________
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 15:37   #13
Registered User
 
Crimea Cruiser's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Crimea
Boat: Colin Archer 36', steel
Posts: 358
Re: Sticky Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
I think the key here is to get the new, US owner to do the paperwork. I just documented a boat that had an long-expired documentation from a PO. The immediate PO had registered it in RI (a place the boat never was) for some dodgy tax reasons. The CG documentation web site has details on specifically what's needed, but I think a paper trail proving that the new owner legally owns the boat, and the old documentation, should do the trick.

The problem, of course, is getting a new owner to take the risk of buying the boat pending the documentation being accepted. Some research ahead of time would help. I got very good service just calling the USCG documentation center on the phone. I wouldn't shy away from a good deal just because the PO was foreign, as long as I knew I would be able to document it. And the escrow account sounds like it could work, too.
I think that sums it up. There is US buyer, but no guarantee by USCG or any state that they will title boat in new owner's name simply based on bill of sale and an expired USCG documentation. The USCG center said they would prefer title along with old USCG doc and two prior bills of sale showing chain of ownership, but could not guarantee they would reinstate documentation simply based on bill of sale without a state title, as documentation lapsed.
__________________
If it floats it's a boat, or perhaps it's f#cal matter!
Crimea Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 15:53   #14
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,029
Re: Sticky Issue

skip-
Florida is not unusual about requiring vessels (vehicles) that are in state to be registered and titled in state. Most, perhaps all, of the states require this if a motor vehicle is in the state (or on state waters, etc.) for 90-181 days either in one year or contiguously running. What IS unusual is that Florida allows you to keep your "home" registration and title, and just pay a duplicate registration in Florida if the boat hangs out there. (They do that for boats, not cars.)

Most (perhaps all) states won't register a motor vehicle without proof of ownership, which usually means title these days. Absent a title some will take the notarized bill of sale, assuming you can locate the PO and convince them to find a notary, which sometimes means chasing around for an hour or two.

Rhode Island was infamous for many years in the Northeast as being the last state to allow you to register a car without having insurance for it. IIRC then they changed to require a $10,000 minimum liability policy, which is still a joke. A cruel joke. And again IIRC they don't impose a sales tax or any other steep taxes on boats registered there, but because RI was so lax about so many things for so long, apparently a lot of folks were getting "resident" addresses to get cheap in-state admissions at U of RI, and after they figured out what they were losing to that, RI imposed a whole new set of rules on residency addresses. You can't just show up and say "I live here" anymore.

So...You mileage may vary?

I know I'd be leery of buying a boat from a foreign owner, with no proper title. Who knows what liens could be on it? Or, without title, if you could ever insure it? And of course with no title, financing is out, it has to be a cash sale. That's gonna cut the market if the boat is higher priced. But if the seller said "the boat is yours, and you get your money back from a US escrow account if I can't give you good title within six months" I'd take that. Puts all the risk where it belongs--on the guy who played fast and loose about the paperwork in the first place.

There's bound to be some state that's infamous for still having lax retitling procedures. Or some banana republic down island way.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 16:53   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,915
Sticky for sure...I suggest hiring a documentation service to sort this out before attempting to sell the boat.
__________________

__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.