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Old 24-05-2010, 20:00   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
. If you read it AGAIN you will see I said I was standing on as he ran up and another boat turned in front of him (the J boat).
As per your request, Don, I've given your original post a third reading.

I noticed, that the title you gave this thread compared the ROR stand-on requirement to a game of chicken. Do you really feel this is an apt metaphor? In the game of chicken the only rule is that he who flinches first loses. Neither car is privileged or burdened. According to the rules of the road, such a situation never exists. In any and every crossing situation, there is a simple procedure that, when followed, prevents a collision from happening. In most of these situations, one boat is required to alter course while the other is required to maintain course and speed.

For all this to work, three things must happen: all vessels must keep a proper watch; everyone must know the rules; everyone must follow the rules. It's fairly simple and it works.

Your approach suggests throwing one of those three conditions out the door, and I object to it. Even after reading the original post three times.
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Old 24-05-2010, 21:42   #17
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Old 25-05-2010, 05:10   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Your approach suggests throwing one of those three conditions out the door, and I object to it. Even after reading the original post three times.

I don't understand, my approach is to follow the rules!. But since you don't know if the other boat is going to, sometimes it is like a game of chicken.
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Old 25-05-2010, 07:12   #19
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An overtaking vessel must keep clear of the overtaken vessel.

No one should have to play guessing games in a meeting, crossing, passing situation.
Though we know it happens all the time.

If you are the overtaken vessel and they have not signaled for permission to pass....and you deem it unsafe for the overtaking vessel to pass you, you can either take early action to alter course and/or sound a danger signal.

If one is the overtaken vessel and takes no action, then it seems to me that one has given implied permission to be passed and then as the stand on vessel must maintain course and speed.
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Old 25-05-2010, 07:27   #20
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The rule itself has not been addressed in this thread so here it is...enjoy.

Interpretation...
The stand on vessel is required to hold course and speed as best as possible until it becomes apparent to the give-way vessel that appropriate action by the stand-on vessel is not being taken. This means that the give-way vessel has the option of deciding when it is apparent that the give way vessel is not taking proper action to avoid collision. Not only is it the give-way vessels option to make the decision, but at that point the stand-on vessel must take action to avoid a collision. When in extremis, the stand-on vessel also becomes a give-way vessel.

Actual law...(The COLREG's are in the US Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's) which makes it law in navigable US territorial waters.) Many other countries have adopted the COLREG's or very close versions of the COLREG's as law.

Rule 17
(a)
    1. Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.
    2. The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navru...s/Rule1617.htm
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
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Old 25-05-2010, 07:36   #21
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I have always maintained that yacht racing is poor seamanship and Bash… you have just confirmed it….
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Old 25-05-2010, 07:52   #22
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First, the statement was that some days just standing on a boat seems like playing chicken.
There are some simple things that reduce these 'miss-understandings'.
1. Like staying mid channel, or slightly starboard of mid and plugging on leaving overtaker to take appropriate action.
2. Often it's a case of not being to windward and behind a boat that's on a parallel course. If he decides to tack it will be across your bows. 'Racers' may prefer to pass upwind of you for their own selfish professional reasons but sensible sailors will pass to the downwind side.
3. You just got caught between the duck and the duckling. Neither prepared to give way, or just ignorant and uncaring of good seamanship. I have once gone into a tack without checking behind. I learnt not to do it again, I do wonder if he learnt anything.
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Old 25-05-2010, 07:56   #23
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So when the other boat (100 feet away - 33 yards in the 50 yard channel?) tacked in front of the J, what happened? Who was on port? Was a collision avoided?

I also notice that you say while the channel is only 50 yards wide (150 feet), you can go outside it, so didn't you have enough room to maneuver? Was the give-way J-boat less than 2 of your boat lengths (26 yards/78 feet) from you?


FWIW, racing can be one of the best teachers of seamanship as you can get a lot of experience in reading and interpreting rules, plus you get to handle your boat in a wide range of conditions. It can also make some sailors real asses.

Fair Winds,
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Old 25-05-2010, 08:53   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YOGAO View Post
FWIW, racing can be one of the best teachers of seamanship as you can get a lot of experience in reading and interpreting rules, plus you get to handle your boat in a wide range of conditions. It can also make some sailors real asses.

Fair Winds,
Mike
A storm at sea teaches you seamanship.

A confrontational storm around a starting line removes seamanship and replaces it with risk taking.

Please do not confuse the two

I agree with your last part Mike...... fair winds!
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Old 25-05-2010, 09:55   #25
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Having raced cars for a long time I can completely agree that racing and the reality of everyday driving rarely mirror each other.

Just becase you know what you are doing dosen't mean the other guy does and that can make for some very hairy encounters.

My cure is to give EVERYONE a little extra room either on the road or the water if I can and be prepared for stupidity as that seems to be the one and only constant.

Not that I've never made a bad choice or anything.
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Old 25-05-2010, 10:01   #26
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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I have always maintained that yacht racing is poor seamanship and Bash… you have just confirmed it….
you'll get no argument from me on that front. I've been knocked down twice during my sailing career, both times close to the finish of a race with the chute up when we knew we had no business pushing the boat that hard.

fortunately, some racers grow up.
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Old 25-05-2010, 10:31   #27
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Reasonable behavior

One of the problems I find with the supposition of a "comfort level" is that it requires you to trust other boaters knowledge and skill level. I find there's enough beligerence out there amongst people with out also adding cocky attitude to the mix. I really like when boaters clearly show there intention in a busy channel, such as in coming and going from mooring areas, by finding a speed and approach that allows everyone to reasonably guess their approach and feel comfortable. Less mistakes will get made that way.
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Old 25-05-2010, 11:07   #28
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The exit from our marina(Kemah Boardwalk Marina) to the Clear Lake channel can be more than a bit exciting depending on if the little water taxi for the restaurants is paying attention or if they are on the cell phone. None of the taxi operators look to be more than about 18yo.

I think the worst thing they do is to use the engines to keep themselves pinned to the dock making for a very powerful crosscurrent that you have to pass through.

I was coming in this weekend and there was another boat coming out when I passed through this area which pushed my bow hard toward the other boat. I was paying attention but if someone hadn't been it could have been an accident. I have also had the same water taxi pull out in front of me without so much as a look my way.

The trip across our channel is only about 100ft so it's a tight place to be and no place to be careless or on the phone. Unfortunately the marina is owned by the same company that owns the resturants and they make lots more money off the food and drink than the slip fees so complaining about the taxis would likely fall on deaf ears.
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Old 25-05-2010, 13:07   #29
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Some of the comments address what I could have done. I/ME and my boat were never in danger and I was Ok with where the J-Boat was and where he appeared to be heading. I was closely watching not just because I was worried how the 2 of the 2 of us would would clear, but what the J-Boat might do because of the other boat. One thing I didn't say was the other other boat was very short sailed probably barely making any way and probably really had no way to control his boat, the guys on it appeared to be working on their rigging or some problem. I think that the J-Boat was so close to the other boat that when that boat turned the J-Boat couldn't even see it due to their genny. I think that if the other boat hadn't started yelling that a collosion would have happened. As the J-boat passed this guy I could hear what sounded like both of them saying they were sorry.

But this was just the story I used. Other times that day I found myself on a converging course with another boat where I was the stand-on boat (and it wasn't one of those questionable times) and the other boat still seemed to hold their line till the last moment. This is where we closed on each other for at least 5-minutes and only knew it was going to be OK in the last 30-seconds or so.

Now if we had been racing I would say all this is OK because we are all on the same page of tactics. But when you are just out cruising along and another boat is approaching and the 2 of you are the only ones around, I don't need to see how tight we can get.

PS - when I said I could have gotten out of the channel because I knew it was OK it was only because it was high tide of 9 feet. Just on the other side of the marker where the orginal example happened there is a rock submerged 3 feet. I normally could not have chosen this. Well I guess I could and just hope that I missed it.
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Old 25-05-2010, 13:08   #30
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Armchair Admiralty

Can I play Armchair Admiralty? Based on the limited information.

The real outcome = No collision, no harm , no foul.

--- but ---

Vessel 1 (Don) = 100 yards from the action. Aware of the J-boat overtaking and is standing on. Not in the picture - no factor.

Vessel 2 (100 yards away being overtaken) = Apparently not aware of the overtaking situation, did not stand on until the pass was complete. Could be at fault. There could be mitigating factors such as room to maneuver or running out of water. Options - Hail the J-boat and ask to tack, ask for room. If you ask for room and need it and he doesn't give it, he's screwed.

Vessel 3 - J-Boat = Overtaking, apparently keeping clear. Could be at fault for not making appropriate horn to signal overtaking. Apparently made avoidance maneuver when stand on vessel tacked.

What's not clear is if anyone was actually racing. If these guys were racing each other other rules are in play but if so they would all be more aware and a penalty flag would have been thrown if anyone felt disadvantaged.
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