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Old 15-02-2012, 16:03   #16
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Re: Speed limits - simple question

So sounds fair enough that it's ground / GPS speed, so I can understand why a Parks vessel operator would be upset. They are concerned about wake / wash and protecting the waterways, but the Police are concerned with speed in terms of collisions and obstacles.

I understand that he probably felt that he was correct to question my speed in this instance. He had no way of measuring speed though, so ultimately he should have not attempted to get involved.
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Old 15-02-2012, 16:21   #17
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Re: Speed limits - simple question

I can't believe that the act is talking about speed over ground. I am sure that they mean speed through the water. Wake does not change with speed over ground when there is a current flowing, it changes with speed through the water. Control of a vessel is dependent on speed through the water. Almost all vessels, up until a short while ago at least, used speed through the water as the vessel speed. If I am traveling downstream and I do not have GPS what do I use to determine boat speed? A little paddle wheel which measures speed through the water. IMHO.
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Old 15-02-2012, 16:27   #18
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Re: Speed limits - simple question

Good call - I've been discussing travelling INTO the current, but of course WITH the current, 5 knots of boat speed + 5 knots of current is a fast 10 knots - relevant to the other vessels around you that are also travelling on boat speed, but not relevant to the fixed obstacles that you might hit on the way past.

So if I'm travelling WITH a 5 knot current and I've got a police radar on me, then I'm in trouble if I attempt to control my vessel at 3 knots of boat speed!

This is good - if we're having trouble understanding this, then the poor plod that ever tries to fine me might have trouble when I bring it up!
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Old 15-02-2012, 16:33   #19
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Re: Speed limits - simple question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
5 knots of boat speed + 5 knots of current is a fast 10 knots
And 1 knot of boat speed with 5 knots of current = uncontrolled drifting while still breaking speed limits.
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Old 15-02-2012, 16:40   #20
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Re: Speed limits - simple question

What about 15 knot tide flow when your going with it in a 8 knot boat !! talk about a carnival ride !! lots of places up the Inland passage to AK are like that ya have to wait the tide to run them good thing they don't have some silly speed law there ! LOL sounds like somebody said a Little Nazi LOL Bob and Connie
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Old 15-02-2012, 16:46   #21
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Re: Speed limits - simple question

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Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
So sounds fair enough that it's ground / GPS speed, so I can understand why a Parks vessel operator would be upset. They are concerned about wake / wash and protecting the waterways, but the Police are concerned with speed in terms of collisions and obstacles.

I understand that he probably felt that he was correct to question my speed in this instance. He had no way of measuring speed though, so ultimately he should have not attempted to get involved.
The problem with thw simple question is that there are so many jurisdiction here. Not withstanding that as a general statement speed limits need evidence provided by some one who is authorised by legislation to use them and then to issue fines/court summons. There are defencens such as steerage and collision avoidance but they would need to be argued in court to override the speeding. My guess that you should be able to get away with tide speed plus a maximum of the speed zone limit provided you are heading in the same direction as the tide. But the onous would be on you to prove the defence. Heading against the tide you would probably nor be able to argue steerage. Futher more with a combined boat speed and oposing tide the chances are that you would create excessive wash so they may get you that way.

Yes i think that the Parks guy would have been better keeping his nose out, or at least sticking to wash issues.
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Old 16-02-2012, 03:01   #22
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Re: Speed limits - simple question

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
I can't believe that the act is talking about speed over ground. I am sure that they mean speed through the water. Wake does not change with speed over ground when there is a current flowing, it changes with speed through the water. Control of a vessel is dependent on speed through the water. Almost all vessels, up until a short while ago at least, used speed through the water as the vessel speed. If I am traveling downstream and I do not have GPS what do I use to determine boat speed? A little paddle wheel which measures speed through the water. IMHO.
With all due respect, believe it or not, the link to the legislation is

Transport Operations Marine Safety Regulation and see schedule 15 - DICTIONARY. I stress again that this is the alw in the State (equivalent to a canadian province) of Queensland

I'm not saying I disagree with the sense of what you say, simply that the law is precise and unequivocal.
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Old 16-02-2012, 05:15   #23
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Re: Speed Limits - Simple Question


The assumption being made by many posters is that the speed restrictions are for the purpose of reduction of wash. Perusal of both Queensland and NSW legislation identify that there are particular provisions relating to the management of wash generation. Speed restriction zones are for other purposes, principally for the safety of all water user in designated waterways mainly where channels are narrow or have high usage. The restriction in the legislation of both states is in provisions later in the Acts than the requirement to maintain control (steerage) and so do not limit that generality of those provisions. If you look at the enquires both into legislation and the application of speed limits to certain areas you will find that the major reason for the speed restrictions is the conduct of power boats that have been recklessly used resulting in deaths and injuries to people on the boats and innocent users of the waterways.

Describing legislation or individual with the responsibility for enforcing such legislation as little Nazi's is both emotive and strives to be political insulting.

For the information of those who continue to contend that speed is not the speed over ground i have attached the relevant provision from NSW legislation, Factor has already done that with Queensland legislation.

Marine Safety (General) Regulation 2009 NSW
3 Definitions
(1) In this Regulation: [2009-109] speed means the speed of a vessel measured by reference to the actual distance travelled over the ground

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Old 16-02-2012, 14:10   #24
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Re: Speed Limits - Simple Question

Don't be worried about the references to Hitler (although it did come very early in the thread) as that is just "Godwins law" coming into play. Google it.

So my question has been answered, at least for NSW and QLD which is fine.

The next complexity is enforcement of that "limit" and the methods used to obtain the speed. That's one argument that takes place on the day between the Police officer and yours truly me thinks!
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Old 16-02-2012, 14:52   #25
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Re: Speed Limits - Simple Question

i think that is not a simple question, i could easyly check but i suspect a speed camera of an "approved type" ie one that has been tested and aproved as being reliable in providing evidence in which ever jurisdiction the "offence" took place in. When i did have a quick look at NSW legislation it was clear that there were exemptions one of which may be very interesting. I think that i could argue that a sailboat under sail is exempt from the speed restriction signs as in sec 11 by the application of sec 14. (section nos are from memory not checked)

Again i have not checked but i think that when you are served with a notice you have the right to dispute the circustances of the offence, with motor vehicle it would normaly be claiming that an other person was driving. Where you to dispute that you were exempt from the speed restriction section of the legislation without trying to dispute the speed over ground reading they may get very nervous possibly droping the charge before you got to court. In court you should win unless you were being stupid in the first place, in which case more fool you

However in reality infringement are rarely issued without some agravating factor such as driving the boat in a manner likely to endanger other water users. In all honesty i never had a problem with MSB, and in particular on speed zones in the probable 2-3000 times i have gone through them. The biggest risk would be after some idot in a power boat has killed some one and there is a public outcry or prehaps in peak holiday times. In one case MSB went out of their way to help when i could have been charged with a significant offence

hope that answer your question
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