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Old 11-12-2012, 12:20   #121
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

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Yes but I would argue you are entitled to the presumption of decency too.
Decency was outlawed in Section 25.4E of the Patriot Act.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:09   #122
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Originally Posted by Astrid
As someone noted earlier, there are a lot of more heavily regulated and red taped areas of the world one could be in than SoCal. On the other side of the coin, there are many unregulated areas one would not want to cruise in either (Somalia comes to mind).
A comparison of extremes does little for the argument. The land of the free needs to do some naval gazing.

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Old 11-12-2012, 13:17   #123
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Originally Posted by Bash

Decency, yes, and civility as well. But once you're late with the rent, it may be too late to expect graciousness on top of it all.
.......

When Cruiser A fails to settle bills in a timely manner, s/he has just made life more difficult for Cruiser B. Well, I'm Cruiser B. When I see Cruiser A getting on the internet and blasting all of Southern California for not being gracious hosts when s/he has been sloppy about paying dockage, my impulse is not to commiserate that the fascist police in the nanny state have done them wrong. Rather, my impulse is to tell Cruiser A to stop mucking it up for the rest of us.
.
Well not really true Bash. Within the facts we have I would have expected civility.

I once drove away from a filing station forgetting to pay. Two days later I got a very apologetic call from the operator informing me I had on obviously forgotten. , they couldn't take cards over the phone and were happy to wait for my return ( over 150 miles away ) to the area within a few days.
There was a basic presumption of decency. No ranting down the phone no talk of police etc.

That's what one would expect.
Sure there may be extenuating circumstances here we don't know about. But on the face of it , it's not a nice way to act.

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Old 11-12-2012, 13:31   #124
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

FWIW,

Over the years we have utilized a large number of marinas as transients. Each and every one of them were happy to be paid in advance for our prospective tenancy. Some required this, some didn't, but the idea of having to pay each day is simply crazy whether by cash, card or red beads.

And threatening seizure for the non-payment of ten dollars is obscene misuse of police powers. It seems analogous to seizing your car if the parking meter flag goes up!

Cheers,

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Old 11-12-2012, 14:07   #125
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

Well let me tell ya why Connie and I will skip Dana Point if we EVER sail the west coast again ! We stopped there as we said before in this thread, to top off our fresh veggies and such and top off the fuel tanks, for our sail to the Panama Canal. We paid for a slip for 2 days, in cash, recieved a recipt, and rented a car and went to shop! 3 hours later we returned to find our boat gone from the slip we were given!! We went to ask WTH was going on !! The Ass Hole behind the desk said they towed it to impound for non payment!! when shown the recite, he said " woops I gess I messed up ! I did not see it in the files!" Ok I said wheres the boat? and he returned, as soon as ya pay the tow bill they will return it!! No problem just come up with 450 bucks and it's all taken care of !! O yea thats what I did all right !! took me 5 days to get it taken care of !! and to top it off they wanted the additional 3 days dockage !! I still owe them for that !! thats why I wont go there again!! Cus with interest I probley owe them 5000 bucks by now !!LOL
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Old 11-12-2012, 15:24   #126
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

I am not from the states being an aussie.I paid my bills everywhere and alot of people where still very rude!!!!! Also I found everywhere the rules are differnet and i just couldnt keep up with them.The little wanker that impounded my boat did so as I was I tied to a bouy in a free anchorage.I only did this as everyone else was doing this.I though I better do this or some wanker will have a go at me.I was only gone from the boat for an hour and they did just that.If you peole sticking up for the dickheads in Cal,do you think it may have been too much to ask just to say Hi mate,can you not tie up to that bouy.i would have said sorry i thought i was doing the right thing.But i spose being polite and using commonb sense to tourists are too much to ask.So once again I paid all my bills and was treated like dirt.This was over a month.I will never go back there.P.
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Old 11-12-2012, 15:39   #127
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
you'll discover that Newport Beach Harbor allows people to settle their bills by credit card. In the instance in question, the Harbor Patrol must have had some reason for requiring the delinquent party to be present to avoid impoundment of their boat In that regard, the harbor seems to have gotten its message across.
If the take CC then they should have taken it over the phone instead making them sweat over it. Regardless of whether the OP's had a part in it or not does not allow a Public Servant to resort to punishment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Decency, yes, and civility as well. But once you're late with the rent, it may be too late to expect graciousness on top of it all.
My guess is that the particular harbor officials in question were taught to be heavy-handed by previous cruisers who skipped out on their dockage. Most likely by cruisers headed south. So the harbor patrol has learned to deal with those who fall behind in their payments via impoundment. It's possible that they thought they were extending a courtesy by providing a warning call prior to impoundment.

If the OP dislikes SoCal, than by all means stay offshore next time you transit the area. Indeed, I invite the OP to skip over Northern California as well. It's possible to get from Mexico to Oregon without ever laying eyes on California, and I'm happy to provide waypoints on how to do so.
Cruisers teach Harbor cops to be heavy-handed? I thought they had a code of conduct. Chances are, when they are slighted by their own boss (Cheif of whatever), they do not try punishing their Cheif. But I guess shat rolls downhill doesn't it. Instead of the OP's needed to have to avoid Ca., wouldn't it be easier and better for the harbor to try and soften a little.
Years back there was a big problem with the San Diego harbor police. A slough of people wrote into Latitude 38 with complaints ranging from the police beaten on coach-roofs at 3am. with stupid questions to boats being impounded for ridiculous reasons. After a few phone calls and letters to the city, things softened and have stayed that way. maybe that is what needs to happen here.
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Old 11-12-2012, 15:41   #128
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Originally Posted by tour72 View Post
I am not from the states being an aussie.I paid my bills everywhere and alot of people where still very rude!!!!! Also I found everywhere the rules are differnet and i just couldnt keep up with them.The little wanker that impounded my boat did so as I was I tied to a bouy in a free anchorage.I only did this as everyone else was doing this.I though I better do this or some wanker will have a go at me.I was only gone from the boat for an hour and they did just that.If you peole sticking up for the dickheads in Cal,do you think it may have been too much to ask just to say Hi mate,can you not tie up to that bouy.i would have said sorry i thought i was doing the right thing.But i spose being polite and using commonb sense to tourists are too much to ask.So once again I paid all my bills and was treated like dirt.This was over a month.I will never go back there.P.
This sounds to me like another example of doing something ridiculous and being upset by the consequences. Mooring buoys aren't free and all other buoys are not for tying up to. This is true thought the US, if not the world, not at all specific to California.

I also find it funny that so many equate the rule of law with a totalitarian state, when the usual definition is precisely the lack of consistency in applying laws.
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Old 11-12-2012, 19:20   #129
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

We you must be well travelled to know all the marinas of the world.What would i know being a hick aussie.i havent been that many places although,I have worked in tourism for 25 years taking people aroung the world on vacation and have travelled through every continent on the planet.Get a life!
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:11   #130
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
what a good thread for whining, crying, complaining, anti-gov't, etc.
Yep, bring it on! Better to vent here than destroy your local authority's and rescue boats as happened in Coffs Harbour NSW AUSTRALIA a few weeks back
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:41   #131
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

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Originally Posted by Greenhand View Post
This sounds to me like another example of doing something ridiculous and being upset by the consequences. Mooring buoys aren't free and all other buoys are not for tying up to. This is true thought the US, if not the world, not at all specific to California.

I also find it funny that so many equate the rule of law with a totalitarian state, when the usual definition is precisely the lack of consistency in applying laws.
Im sorry Greenhand, if you cannot see that basic civility and the application of common sense should be applied here by the authorities, then youve lost the plot.It is an indication of how far the nanny state has indoctinated you that you feel this is acceptable behaviour. I suspect if I walked into your garden at night cause I was broken down , you'd shoot me and believe that is acceptable society, merely because the law may allow it.

Quote:
Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state holds total authority over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life wherever necessary
I was once in Copenhagen , I saw a very drunk student was vomiting in the gutter, a cop picked him up, dusted him down and helped him to a bus stop. Seeing me watching this , he said ( in their usual perfect english), "We were all young and foolish once", My esteem for the Scandinavians rose even higher ( if thats possible, I was once a sales rep covering thats area - brrrr).

IN any other "reasonable" country, one would have expected an equivalent "tap on the shoulder" and a reminder that what one is doing isnt allowed. Doubly where one is a tourist.

The new cop and the shoes incident shows whats right, tour72s story shows whats wrong

who wants to live in a country or society governed by rules rather then basic morality.

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Old 12-12-2012, 05:07   #132
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

Civility and politness are the glue that holds a society together. I used to travel regularly to the us. I finally quit flying through DC since the immigration persons there were impolite and uncivil to a man (or woman). They spoke degradingly to anyone coming in, voiced suspiciousness and disbelief at anything the traveler said.

I should note here that I traveled to the us 8-10 times per year. They could easily see the stamps in my passport. I was an executive with a major american corporation, carried business cards and corporate ID with me. No reason not to speak civilly.

I started flying through virtually anywhere else and generally met immigration authorities that were polite, civil and efficient.

And, by the way, I'm unfailing polite to others. I worked in the hospitality industry for years - and was a salesman for many more.

The immigration cops in DC just loved to lord it over everyone - I witnessed it countless times.

Regarding this incidence, we only have one side of the story, so the "facts" as related may be shaded by the aggravation felt by the OP. but anyone in authority should be polite and civil. There is an old saying:

"Rank has many privileges - being rude is not one of them"

Dave - Glad you liked Denmark - let me know if you come sailing up here - I'll get you some cruising info.

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Old 12-12-2012, 05:17   #133
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

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Dave - Glad you liked Denmark - let me know if you come sailing up here - I'll get you some cruising info.
Thanks, Ive passed it by several times and did a X-yacht delivery, would love to cruise the whole baltic, and especially the western end. ( have to get the wife to abandon her love affair with the Cote D'Azure!!!

I spent a lot of time in the major industrial areas as I was a technical rep for a US company covering Northern Europe. Nice area , nice people.

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Old 12-12-2012, 13:20   #134
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Re: So many rules in So Cal!

Jim-
"the idea of having to pay each day is simply crazy" That was my initial response, but it actually DOES make sense if you are really trying to confirm that each vessel is occupied, not moored by the month, and that no one is subletting a monthly mooring that way. It does make sense--but if that's why they are doing it, that's a whole other kettle of fish. And a public relations officer ought to come along and post a sign about it, rather than have everyone thinking they ar nuts.

tour-
You convenientlydon't say what kind of a bouy you tied up to. If you moor a vessel to a navigation buoy in the US, that's totally illegal and IIRC a felony offense, so they can arrest both you and the boat and about ten grand later ask you to leave. They're dead serious about it because mooring to the marks pulls them off station and then there are major consequences if no one figures that out. And major expenses in any case.

I haven't checked but I suspect most of the world runs similarly. Tying up to a mark? None of usnatives would even THINK of doing that. How'd you make it all the way over from Oz without an anchor?
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Old 12-12-2012, 13:35   #135
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Originally Posted by tour72 View Post
I am not from the states being an aussie.I paid my bills everywhere and alot of people where still very rude!!!!! Also I found everywhere the rules are differnet and i just couldnt keep up with them.The little wanker that impounded my boat did so as I was I tied to a bouy in a free anchorage.I only did this as everyone else was doing this.I though I better do this or some wanker will have a go at me.I was only gone from the boat for an hour and they did just that.If you peole sticking up for the dickheads in Cal,do you think it may have been too much to ask just to say Hi mate,can you not tie up to that bouy.i would have said sorry i thought i was doing the right thing.But i spose being polite and using commonb sense to tourists are too much to ask.So once again I paid all my bills and was treated like dirt.This was over a month.I will never go back there.P.
Heh. Don't let the door hit you on the way out...

I may be biased, because I am a humble civil servant, and this has been very entertaining so far. I love the cries of "where's the common sense" on the part of the authorities, in reference to someone who tied up a mooring and left his boat. Hello? Common sense? I'd love to find anywhere in Southern California where moorings are free. Be honest, you risked not paying the meter and got a ticket. Now you're pissed about it. Same with the OP.

Rather than whine about the Harbor Patrol officers, why not go spend a day riding out with them. See the other side for a change. Watch how much time they waste dealing with the derelicts, sorry "free men" and their roach motels , sorry "boats."

Rules exist to try and curb abuses. The rules he convoluted because the abusers keep cooking up creative ways to circumvent them. If everyone was as upright as they think of themselves as being, we wouldn't need them. Rules that are obviously around to make something difficult must exist because the authority doesn't want to deal with it.

People keep mistaking privileges for rights. And I eagerly await those same people to tell me how "indoctrinated" I am. What a crock.

Imagine you're the harbor patrol. You're on your way back to station from a six hour ordeal because Joe Dirt pumped his sewage and oil filled bilge out next to the launch ramp again. Fish and Game takes a dim view of oil in the water, so you've just boomed and skimmed it for the third time in a month. As you go by, you see somebody tied up to a water taxi mooring again. You swing by to ask him to move. You knock and yell, but no answer, he's left his boat unattended. Third time this week. Well, the water taxi needs that, so you take the boat in tow back to station with you and secure it to the muni dock to await the owner. Who shows up super pissed that his boat got towed for "no reason", because he is obviously the most important person on earth and is entitled to tie up wherever he wants without contacting anyone first. And just think, if he would have shown even an ounce of remorse or even mutual respect, you would have let him go with a warning to avoid doing all the paperwork.

So if you would like me to assume the best about the OP, is it unreasonable for me to ask that you give the officer the same? I'm guessing not, because everyone hates the authorities till they need them...

JRM

-- this is actually the fourth post I've done on this topic since it started. I deleted the others prior to posting. I probably should do so again, but I just can't help myself sometimes...
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