Shengen Question IV

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by LordByron

I bought a French boat in France and registered it in Oz. I chose NOT to pay VAT with the knowledge that I must leave the EU after 18 months thereabouts.

So it was a new boat you bought? You don't pay VAT on second hand boats anymore.

[chuckr]

we are americans and currently sitting in Tunisia for winter to get out of schengren after spending the summer sailing italy, in schengren, then albania, montenegro, croatia, all out of schengren last year but croatia will be schengren in 2015, then back to italy for a return trip to tunisia. this is our second year in the med.

looks like you have been in schengren and it really may depend on some port captain/customs official/ ect. you may get by with no issue or if someone decides you may get a fine or as i understand it the worse is the red stamp your passport so you can not reenter the eu for a couple of years.

you really need to think about getting out of the eu for 90 days now if you want to sail the eu countries this summer. just our opinion.


by the way there is a lot of info on this subject here --
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ed-126931.html

[dlymn]

If you bought a boar in France, the broker should have gone through a "radicalization" which deflags the boat and removes French registration. You cannot claim to be an Eu citizen and own an Eu boat when you are a foreigner. You should deregister your boat in you passport country. The problem comes when you need to be rescued. You might have to pay for the rescues because no one is responsible for you.
The VAT paid status seems to carry on, more by ignorance of the law. If you sell the boat back to an EU citizen it's remotely possible that you will have to pay the VAT even it had been paid before.

[LordByron]

Thanks heaps, but I don't have any VAT issues. It's Shengen my query is about. Sorry for any confusion.


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[dlymn]

Reregister not deregister: auto spell check.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dlymn

If you bought a boar in France, the broker should have gone through a "radicalization" which deflags the boat and removes French registration. You cannot claim to be an Eu citizen and own an Eu boat when you are a foreigner. You should deregister your boat in you passport country. The problem comes when you need to be rescued. You might have to pay for the rescues because no one is responsible for you.
The VAT paid status seems to carry on, more by ignorance of the law. If you sell the boat back to an EU citizen it's remotely possible that you will have to pay the VAT even it had been paid before.

Pay for a rescue in European waters because you have a non-European flag? Never heard of anything like that before. Which countries? Link?

[dlymn]

Countries agree to rescue boats for other countries at no cost. If your boat is not registered in any country you fall out of that safety net. When a non EU person buys an EU registered boat it automatically becomes deregistered ie it is not registered in any country. You might think that you are sailing under say a French flag but when there is a multi thousand euro rescue bill involved, the flagged country might just say, 'this boat is owned by a non EU citizen and therefore we are not responsible' and your passport country might say 'Well this boat is not registered in our country so we're not responsible'. Do some searches for paying for rescue. Read some Australian press comments about the Tony Bulimore rescue.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dlymn

Countries agree to rescue boats for other countries at no cost. If your boat is not registered in any country you fall out of that safety net. When a non EU person buys an EU registered boat it automatically becomes deregistered ie it is not registered in any country. You might think that you are sailing under say a French flag but when there is a multi thousand euro rescue bill involved, the flagged country might just say, 'this boat is owned by a non EU citizen and therefore we are not responsible' and your passport country might say 'Well this boat is not registered in our country so we're not responsible'. Do some searches for paying for rescue. Read some Australian press comments about the Tony Bulimore rescue.

But Tony Bullimore was not charged for his rescue. Australia does not charge anyone for rescues regardless of flag of the vessel or lack thereof. AFAIK, it's the same everywhere in Europe; for sure UK and France at least. The UK lifeboats rescue Turks sailing homemade rafts, for example - no questions asked, no payment required. If you have contrary info, can you provide a link?

[dlymn]

When I register my boat, I pay a fee for that. In Australia, that was $1295 for a sailboat, probably more now. I reckon that much of that is sort of a lifetime insurance policy that is used to provide the rescue services for boats. It's true that countries have mutually agreed to cover the cost of sea rescue, but think of the unregistered and uninsured car driver who is in a car crash; that person is liable for all costs. The taxpayer and others who pay insurance will not foot the bill. If your unregistered (read uninsured) boat needs rescue why should those people who have paid their insurance cover the cost of your rescue? When you sail under a foreign flag and yet own the boat, you sail at your own risk. Yes, they will save your life, but cross your fingers after that. Look at those Bulimore, Sunderland and sick baby reports and sense the resentment (who knows what that might become when the taxpayer discovers that you haven't contributed one cent to insuring yourself). Go and live in New Hampshire and send out a mayday. Some bedtime reading
http://www.eccbelgie.be/images/downl...n%20Europe.pdf

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by dlymn

When I register my boat, I pay a fee for that. In Australia, that was $1295 for a sailboat, probably more now. I reckon that much of that is sort of a lifetime insurance policy that is used to provide the rescue services for boats. It's true that countries have mutually agreed to cover the cost of sea rescue, but think of the unregistered and uninsured car driver who is in a car crash; that person is liable for all costs. The taxpayer and others who pay insurance will not foot the bill. If your unregistered (read uninsured) boat needs rescue why should those people who have paid their insurance cover the cost of your rescue? When you sail under a foreign flag and yet own the boat, you sail at your own risk. Yes, they will save your life, but cross your fingers after that. Look at those Bulimore, Sunderland and sick baby reports and sense the resentment (who knows what that might become when the taxpayer discovers that you haven't contributed one cent to insuring yourself). Go and live in New Hampshire and send out a mayday. Some bedtime reading
http://www.eccbelgie.be/images/downl...n%20Europe.pdf

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. Your Australian registration gives your vessel Australia status and all the benefits and protection of the Australian Government. If while sailing in international waters or waters of another country you become the recipient of a SAR incident you will be rescued at no cost. If however you require assistance, not rescue, because of engine of other failure requiring a tow then you can expect a bill. Australian registration has no insurance components. If you get stuck on a sand bank in Australia and call for assistance from any of the marine rescue volunteer groups, you will get a bill unless you are a member of that attending group. SAR has no interest in you registration status.

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[dlymn]

"Your Australian registration gives your vessel Australia status and all the benefits and protection of the Australian Government."

I think you have made my point quite well,; no registration, no benefits and protection of the Australian government (including international treaties). Yes, I agree that all signatory countries will save your life gratis but i think that negligence might have a price to pay. If it turns out that you have not paid to be a part of a country's protection schemes or carry any other form of insurance, then the matter just might be seen in an entirely different light. Certainly the cost of rescuing your boat will probably not be free. Read the document I attached to previous mail.

[monte]

Definitely barking up the wrong stick. The OP said he registered the boat Australian.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by dlymn

If you bought a boar in France, the broker should have gone through a "radicalization" which deflags the boat and removes French registration. You cannot claim to be an Eu citizen and own an Eu boat when you are a foreigner. You should deregister your boat in you passport country. The problem comes when you need to be rescued. You might have to pay for the rescues because no one is responsible for you.

The VAT paid status seems to carry on, more by ignorance of the law. If you sell the boat back to an EU citizen it's remotely possible that you will have to pay the VAT even it had been paid before.

There's more wrong in this post then right.

Vat has nothing to do with the flag registration of a boat, absolutely nothing. You could have an Australian registered vessel that is vat paid and a UK one that is not vat paid. Nor does changing the registration /flag after buying it matter to vat either.

Vat is a transaction tax, it's only of you import or export the boat into or out of the EU that vat liability " may" arise. I can sit or my boat in Nice all day and register it anyway I legally can , without affecting its vat status.

As to rescue , you are in general wrong. The only charge that " may " be applied in so e European countries is where you engineered a frivolous rescue

Dave


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[dlymn]

When a non-EU citizen buys a boat it needs to be registered in the new owner's country. This means that the boat has technically been exported from the originally registered country and the VAT status of the boat becomes irrelevant. If I bring that boat back to Australia, I will have to pay GST on entry. If I sell it back to a EU citizen it is likewise considered an import and VAT needs to be paid. Sometimes a particular customs officer might overlook this but that is just good luck.

(Yes, all of this is off topic from OP -Sorry)

[dlymn]

From Registration of yachts, cruisers and fishing boats - Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA)
(Yes still off topic and not even about VAT- shame on me)
Australian nationality for the vessel

• A vessel on the high seas is, under international law, required to have nationality.
• Registration is the process by which a vessel will be accorded Australian protection on the high seas and in foreign ports.

Use of the vessel as security for a mortgage

• Many financial institutions, such as banks and finance companies, require a vessel to be registered before they will lend money using the vessel as security.

Ability to sail overseas

• It is an offence for an Australian-owned vessel to sail for a foreign port unless it is registered in the Australian Register of Ships.
• Please note: Vessels purchased overseas by Australians are also required to be registered before they sail for Australia or another foreign country.