Selling a Survey

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by sailpower

What "standard" contract are you refering to? The state of FL does not mandate the form of contract to be used between the parties. Brokers are free to use any form that all the parties are willing to sign.

The state of FL does mandate a few items, but you are correct that there is no state mandated form for the contract. I have read (really read, all the way through) contracts prepared by three brokers in the state of FL. They were all EXTREMELY similar, and only varied in small ways. Most of the wording was identical.

My assumption is that this is because most of the brokers in the state use a standard template for their contracts. A template that they know will meet the state requirements, and hold up in a Florida court.

Just to be specific to the subject of this thread, ALL of those contracts left the decision to back out of the sale entirely up to the buyer, after getting the survey. And NONE of them would have required the buyer to show the seller the survey, or provide any explanation as to what part of the survey was not acceptable.

[David_Old_Jersey]

I dunno about the US, but over here Surveyors add a line or 2 about the Survey not being for re-sale and only for the Parties it was done for (i.e. Boat Buyer / Insurance company). So apart from the information (useful, but not essential) most of it's value can't be passed onto another person (can't "rely" on it, or sue the Surveyor).

Never heard of anyone getting sued for re-selling, but always a first


FWIW I asked the Vendor (now PO!) in person:-

What's wrong with the boat?
What needs doing?
What do you think would be a good idea to look at closely / replace / refurb at some point?

Most people when asked straight give an honest answer. or look like they are lying!

I explained that I could see plenty to keep me busy (and that didn't put me off) - and that I could see that the refurb work already done was top notch ........but just wanted the PO's honest assessment and advice (people like being asked for advice!)..........before I got a surveyor involved. My thinking was that if the PO bullshitted me on things I had identified that would save me the cost of a surveyor

In the event the PO and boat were exactly what it said on the tin.......and the reason the Refurb is only now drawing to a close is that life intervenes* on even the best laid plans.........



*polite for sh#ts all over

[S/V Illusion]

I think some people are missing the point here. Clearly, reasons such as buyer's remorse, changed my mind, want to buy a plane instead, etc... are not valid reasons to abrogate one's contractual obligation to purchase. Signing a typical P&S agreement for a boat stipulates the survey results form the basis for that decision. It is for this reason, regardless of language a surveyor may include, that mandates the decision be based on a survey and therefore the seller has a right to access, again regardless of what language someone might think precludes that obligation by the seller.
Most people are either easy-going or just lucky that they were never challenged.

Obviously there are lots of computer attorneys here. My only advice is don't be blinded by what you think and never use a "standard" contract (not that one exists) which is never in your best interest regardless of what side of the sale you are on. These "standard" contracts protect only the broker(s) and using one only demonstrates your lack of understanding.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I think some people are missing the point here. Clearly, reasons such as buyer's remorse, changed my mind, want to buy a plane instead, etc... are not valid reasons to abrogate one's contractual obligation to purchase.

I don’t know if you yourself are an attorney (I am not) but I can tell you from actual experience that you are wrong, at least in the state of MD.

Ten years ago I was the listing agent for a 3m motoryacht that flew through survey. The purchase agreement was one that the Yacht Brokers Association (YBAA) endorsed.

The day before the acceptance/reject date and after verbal assurances that everything was fine, the buyer rejected the boat. At this point the owner had moved all of his personal gear from the boat and was waiting to close.

The other broker told me that he was sorry but the buyer had decided that he wanted a bigger boat. I explained that I didn’t think that changing one’s mind was a valid reason to reject the boat. The rejection letter submitted stated that the cancellation was due to the survey results with nothing specific mentioned.

Long story short, the seller sued the buyer and LOST! The court determined that the contract was sufficiently broad to allow the buyer to cancel the sale. It flies in the face of common sense but there you go.

FWIW, most of these contracts also have sea trial provisions in them. Talk about a wide open out!

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I think some people are missing the point here. Clearly, reasons such as buyer's remorse, changed my mind, want to buy a plane instead, etc... are not valid reasons to abrogate one's contractual obligation to purchase. Signing a typical P&S agreement for a boat stipulates the survey results form the basis for that decision. It is for this reason, regardless of language a surveyor may include, that mandates the decision be based on a survey and therefore the seller has a right to access, again regardless of what language someone might think precludes that obligation by the seller.
Most people are either easy-going or just lucky that they were never challenged.

Obviously there are lots of computer attorneys here. My only advice is don't be blinded by what you think and never use a "standard" contract (not that one exists) which is never in your best interest regardless of what side of the sale you are on. These "standard" contracts protect only the broker(s) and using one only demonstrates your lack of understanding.

Yeah, but all you have to say is "i saw some rusty bolts and I'm rejecting the inspection..." let's get real...there's alway something wrong with a boat! I have had brokers forms not work to my well being before, although I think they are getting to be more universal now. One problem I had as a seller was: when I received an offer, I counteroffered, but the broker didnt give any end date for the counteroffer. Subsequently, I got a full price cash offer 5 days later (while the first buyer was playing the waiting game) I accepted and the boat went to survey. The first potential buyer was real mad! He actually followed the boat to survey and videotaped it etc. Public boat yard... I had no way of stopping him. He then got a lawyer and tried to reverse the deal based on no end date for my counter. In the end, the broker and I split a $500 to make him go away...

[bangkaboat]

There is no requirement for full disclosure on the sale of a boat, in the USA, Canada, or Mexico. When looking for my "next boat" - the one I have now - I negotiated on a few & inquired about many. The boat I eventually bought had much "deferred maintenance" that was not reported prior to the survey. Both the broker & seller were present when the boat was surveyed. Let's face it, brokers are going to push the positive aspects of the boat, not the negative. Sellers are normally kept out of the picture, to avoid the chance that they might raise issues on their own. To buy a used boat without having it hauled is foolish & few buyers have the acumen to survey an unknown boat to the degree that a good surveyor would. Having some slight experience in the car/truck sales business, I know that using a surveyor removes the emotional factor and replaces it with unemotional critique, or as my surveyor pointed out to me, "My job is too find everything that is wrong with the boat, so expect a negative view. You are the one who will ultimately decide if the boat is right for you."

So, for those who feel that one should willingly give the results of a survey to the broker/seller if he/she decides not to buy the boat, I suggest that it is the broker/seller who force the buyer to have a haul-out & survey by not agreeing to fully disclose any issues with the boat, and standing legally liable for anything not disclosed. To wit, the broker/seller can not "have their cake & eat it too". Now, I like the guy who last owned my boat & the broker who managed the deal. But, I'd also find it hard to believe that the seller didn't know of the boat's issues. That's the first thing I learned about boat ownership many years ago; one must know much more about a boat he/she owns than one he/she sails.

[denverd0n]

I guess the bottom line that I hope those who are not already familiar with the process of buying and/or selling a boat will come away with is, the purchase contract is legally binding. Read it. Read it all the way through, and be sure you understand it, before you sign it. Things that it says you have to do, you have to do. Things that it says you must not do, you must not do. Don't take anything for granted, and don't make any assumptions, because if it is not in the contract, it is not part of the legal agreement.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

The state of FL does mandate a few items, but you are correct that there is no state mandated form for the contract. I

You learn something new every day. I hate to put out incorrect information. What did I miss re the state of Florida. What items are mandated to be in the contract?

Thanks.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by bangkaboat

There is no requirement for full disclosure on the sale of a boat, in the USA, Canada, or Mexico.

That might be changing after this recent case which I hear is now being appealed.

Jury finds Fort Lauderdale-based HMY Yacht Sales liable for negligent misrepresentation - Sun Sentinel