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SailFastTri · 12-09-2011, 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by denverd0n

As a buyer, I would NEVER agree to a contract that required that my reason for rejecting the survey had to be vetted and approved by the seller. As such, I would only discuss the results of the survey with the seller if I wanted to use that information to re-negotiate the price. Otherwise, it is a simple "based on the survey results I have decided not to buy." Period. End of discussion.

If the seller wants to know more--if they want to see what is in the survey--they can buy the survey from me. But it won't make any difference to me backing out of the deal. If the seller doesn't consider my reason for backing out to be "legitimate," too bad for him.

This, by the way, is the "usual" way that deals are written here in Florida. It is entirely up to the buyer to decide if he is happy with the deal after the survey is done, and the seller has no say-so as to what is a "legitimate" reason for the buyer to back out.

Yes it's the way business is usually done. However, if the seller wanted to try to hold you to the contract and lawyers got involved, the survey would be part of the legal "discovery" and you would be forced to hand it over (and you'd have to pay your lawyer to deliver it to them).

Sand crab · 12-09-2011, 06:53

Here is a link to a purchase contract provided by the Catamaran Company which is one of the biggest multihull brokers in the world. I suspect that this is a somewhat standard purchase agreement especially in the US. Unless I'm missing something I don't see that the contract requires the buyer to give the seller a copy of the survey.
http://www.yachtservices.net/documen...eAgreement.pdf

BOB

Bash · 12-09-2011, 07:29

If I were the owner of the boat, I'd contact the surveyor and offer to pay for a copy of the report. It will probably only cost $10.

Adamante · 12-09-2011, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bash

If I were the owner of the boat, I'd contact the surveyor and offer to pay for a copy of the report. It will probably only cost $10.

That would depend on the terms of the survey contract between the buyer and the surveyor. If the buyer owns all intellectual property rights to the survey as a result of a work-for-hire contractual stipulation, then the surveyor cannot sell the survey to anyone else without the consent of the buyer.

Sand crab · 12-09-2011, 08:06

Bash, the pre-purchase survey is paid for by the buyer and it is his private property. Imagine if you paid about $1000 for the document (including haulout, etc.) and rejected the purchase based on that document and then found out that a third party has that document for free because it was provided to them by the seller or the broker. You'd be rightfully pissed. Let them spend their own $1000 or they could buy yours at a discount.
This is a link to the Society of Marine Surveyers.
The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors®, Inc. - (SAMS®)
If you go to there FAQS page then you will see this
"ONCE YOU RETAIN THE SURVEYOR, HE OR SHE WORKS ONLY FOR YOU AND REPORTS TO NO ONE ELSE. THE SURVEYOR IS THERE TO PROTECT YOUR INTERESTS!"

If the surveyer was selling copies of the survey then he wouldn't be working for the person that retained the surveyer. Surveyers are supposed to have ethics, too. BOB

denverd0n · 12-09-2011, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

As a seller I wouldn't even accept a contract from some of you if your position is that you can reject the boat and back out of the deal based on the survey, but then refuse to provide a copy that is the basis.

I suppose that if the seller insisted that I had to provide a copy of the survey in the event that I backed out of the deal as a result, I might agree to that. I would NEVER, however, agree to any deal that said that the seller got any say whatsoever regarding whether my reason for backing out was good enough. Nor would I agree to even explaining the reason. Once the survey is done I will either re-negotiate, or simply say "thanks, but no thanks."

Again, may be done differently elsewhere (probably is), but here in Florida, what I am describing is the normal way that boat deals are done.

avb3 · 12-09-2011, 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Here is a link to a purchase contract provided by the Catamaran Company which is one of the biggest multihull brokers in the world. I suspect that this is a somewhat standard purchase agreement especially in the US. Unless I'm missing something I don't see that the contract requires the buyer to give the seller a copy of the survey.
http://www.yachtservices.net/documen...eAgreement.pdf

BOB

If I see a clause requiring that, it would be either eliminated before I sign, or I don't sign.

Broker has the choice... there are lots of boats out there. "Standard Purchase Agreements" are there for the benefit of the broker/seller and not the purchaser.

denverd0n · 12-09-2011, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

However, if the seller wanted to try to hold you to the contract and lawyers got involved...

I don't think you understand. There would be nothing for the seller to hold me to. The standard contract, here in Florida, says that after the buyer has a survey done he is free to back out of the deal based on that survey, for any reason whatsoever, and has no obligation to explain why he is backing out. So, you get the survey, you say you have decided not to buy, that's the end of it.

If the seller tries to take you to court after that he is simply going to be wasting his time and money. He has absolutely ZERO chance of winning--plenty of precedent for that. And as such, if he did decide to sue me, I would simply counter-sue and, again, plenty of precedent that I would win.

TheManWhoSpoke · 16-09-2011, 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

As a seller I wouldn't even accept a contract from some of you if your position is that you can reject the boat and back out of the deal based on the survey, but then refuse to provide a copy that is the basis.

Before the boat is sold, there is no contract. The prospective buyer has not bought the boat. A survey makes the prospective buyer aware of any issues with the boat, which gives them the ability to make an informed decision on the purchase. Before the purchase is made - there is no compulsion to follow through with a purchase. No justification is necessary if the purchase is not made. Selling the information makes perfect sense, Esp. when that information cost money.

S/V Illusion · 16-09-2011, 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManWhoSpoke

Before the boat is sold, there is no contract. The prospective buyer has not bought the boat. A survey makes the prospective buyer aware of any issues with the boat, which gives them the ability to make an informed decision on the purchase. Before the purchase is made - there is no compulsion to follow through with a purchase. No justification is necessary if the purchase is not made. Selling the information makes perfect sense, Esp. when that information cost money.

Quite tyhe contrary - the contract exists and is typically entered into when the offer is made and accepted. That IS the contract! Stipulated therein is the right of the buyer to refuse to execute based upon the survey results. Absent the survey, the buyer is obligated by the contract to either execute the sale or lose his deposit in penalty for default.

The only means by which a buyer can ensure his deposit is returned upon refusing the execute is to demonstrate the survey forms a satisfactory basis for backing out of the contract.

It is for that reason the seller has an absolute right to obtain documentation (i.e., the survey) or keep the deposit.

denverd0n · 16-09-2011, 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

The only means by which a buyer can ensure his deposit is returned upon refusing the execute is to demonstrate the survey forms a satisfactory basis for backing out of the contract.

Maybe in your part of the world, but not around here.

I have bought and sold boats in Florida, North Carolina, and Maryland. In ALL cases the standard contract contained wording to the effect that the contract was contingent on a survey that was satisfactory to the buyer. Period. The sellers opinion did not matter one little bit. The seller didn't get any say in whether or not the survey was satisfactory, and the buyer did not have to explain why the survey was not satisfactory.

In fact, I have backed out of a deal after getting the survey and I did not offer any explanation at all. I did not have to "demonstrate" anything to anyone. I simply sent a letter saying that after reviewing the survey I had decided not to proceed with the purchase, and requested a return of my deposit. My deposit was, of course, returned. Had it not been, I would have sued, and I would have won.

As I said before, I might be willing to agree to give the seller a copy of the survey in the event that I decide to back out of the deal. I would, however, NEVER agree to allow the seller any voice in deciding whether the survey was acceptable or not.

S/V Illusion · 16-09-2011, 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Maybe in your part of the world, but not around here.

I have bought and sold boats in Florida, North Carolina, and Maryland. In ALL cases the standard contract contained wording to the effect that the contract was contingent on a survey that was satisfactory to the buyer. Period. The sellers opinion did not matter one little bit. The seller didn't get any say in whether or not the survey was satisfactory, and the buyer did not have to explain why the survey was not satisfactory.

In fact, I have backed out of a deal after getting the survey and I did not offer any explanation at all. .

Well, you were just lucky.
I never contradicted your statement that "standard contract contained wording to the effect that the contract was contingent on a survey that was satisfactory to the buyer".

What you may not understand is that there is an implied obligation to the buyer that the survey provides a basis for a decision of the buyer. Merely saying it provides one (a valid basis) is sometimes acceptable to a seller and may be in your case if you don't ask but all sellers are not that naive or trusting of buyers who may back out because of any number of frivolous reasons.

perchance · 16-09-2011, 08:41

Just out of idle curiosity, how long is a survey valid for?

Lancerbye · 16-09-2011, 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by perchance

Just out of idle curiosity, how long is a survey valid for?

Depends what it is being used for. If it is for insurance, it can be 3 to 5 years, if it is for morgage, I think most require no older than 6 mos. If it is for the purchasing of a boat it becomes the requirement of the buyer. It is totally up to the buyer if he feels the survey is good enough and in a suitable time frame.