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Old 30-06-2015, 05:48   #31
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I agree, there is no conflict in the rules, but as the situation develops, you will no doubt be running your options through your head. You will ask yourself- "should I stand on here, or should I just get out of this guy's way".

What I'm saying is the ColRegs allow for either option- depending on the circumstances. In an overtaking situation- boats- even ships need to be pretty close to one another for risk of collision to exist because the rate of closure is so slow.

I don't imagine scooting is an internationally recognised nautical term. It's just what I call edging over to the side of the channel. I'm not sure if there is a proper nautical term for it.
"Scooting" works for me

"Bridge, prepare to scoot, on my mark . . . "
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Old 30-06-2015, 06:01   #32
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

The reason I say generally starboard side is I once had a strip torn off me on channel 16 by the Captain of a 1000' ore carrier for moving over to starboard.

I was skipper of a Fisheries Research Trawler- about 60 tons. I was in an area of the St Mary's river I had little experience in. I did what I normally do and moved over to starboard to get out of his way. But if I was paying attention to my charts- I would have realised the traffic lanes are reversed in that particular section of the river- deep draft ships have the right to claim the west side of the river there regardless of whether they are upbound or downbound. 5 short and a public shaming on the radio- never made that mistake again.

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Old 30-06-2015, 06:01   #33
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
If he has enough room on both sides, I think it's better to do what the Rules say. Two vessels maneuvering at once in close quarters is really dangerous, something I think many recreational boaters don't understand.
There's no need to guess if he needs room, nor conflict between rules 9 and 17 - the rules make it clear:

Quote:
9(e)
(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can take place only if the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34(d).
  • (ii) This Rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.
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Old 30-06-2015, 08:14   #34
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
There's no need to guess if he needs room, nor conflict between rules 9 and 17 - the rules make it clear:
Bingo

That's the missing link. It means that if you are following the rules, you don't "scoot" until you've received and acknowledged a passing signal, which precludes (we hope) any risk of turning into each other.

Honored in the breach, of course, where small vessels are concerned, as FamilyVan has pointed out.
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Old 30-06-2015, 09:56   #35
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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That's not what five blasts means. It's this:

"When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle." Rule 34(d)


If you are being overtaken, your "action to avoid collision" is to hold your course and speed, so that the overtaking vessel can get around you, unless the overtaking vessel can't get around you and can't slow down -- and there is no special signal for that. Absolutely not "take evasive action" -- that's crazy and can cause an accident. The last thing you should be doing when someone is passing you is to dart around unpredictably. Even if you get a signal telling you he is taking you on one side or the other, you shouldn't assume that he's actually going to do that, and maneuver at the same time. It's really important for you to "hold still" and let him get around you -- let him control the maneuver. That's the "privilege" of the overtaking vessel.

We can imagine that a ship overtaking us might want us to be aware that he is there so that we don't make any unexpected moves -- so that we are sure to hold course and speed. I guess five blasts could mean "I'm not sure you saw me and am not sure whether your intention is to hold course and speed as you should".

But I would much more expect two longs and one short, or two longs and two shorts, which would indicate by which side he intends to overtake.


In my case -- perhaps he just gave the wrong signal, and was waving to say "sorry", like we do sometimes when we make a mistake when driving. He had enough room and passed me with a good cable of clearance, so I don't think I was impeding him.
One shot blast is enough to let traffic know that clearance is needed.m
A guess is just that A Guess. If you are being overtaken you will be overtaken on the starboard side as per protocol. As such you need to manoeuvre to port as far as is safe to do given opposing traffic.

As I have said before on this site, if you have thousands of tonnes bearing down on you, then appropriate action to save lives needs to be taken and maintaining course because you have " Right of Way" is not saving lives.
Rules are rules but never must they override common sense and experience.
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Old 30-06-2015, 10:03   #36
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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If you are being overtaken you will be overtaken on the starboard side as per protocol. As such you need to manoeuvre to port as far as is safe to do given opposing traffic.
Protocol? Whose protocol is this?

Nobody has said anything about "right of way" - and standing on isn't done to spite another vessel; it's done because that's what the rules require.
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Old 30-06-2015, 10:42   #37
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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One shot blast is enough to let traffic know that clearance is needed.m
A guess is just that A Guess. If you are being overtaken you will be overtaken on the starboard side as per protocol. As such you need to manoeuvre to port as far as is safe to do given opposing traffic.

As I have said before on this site, if you have thousands of tonnes bearing down on you, then appropriate action to save lives needs to be taken and maintaining course because you have " Right of Way" is not saving lives.
Rules are rules but never must they override common sense and experience.
The way I read the OP I didn't see any indication any ones life was in danger. I got the impression it was a routine passing where some sound signals were exchanged.

I think the ships master got nervous, and was unaware that DH is aware of the ColRegs and blew a just in case type 5 short. I don't think a close quarters situation occurred.

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Old 30-06-2015, 11:26   #38
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboson HR352 View Post
One shot blast is enough to let traffic know that clearance is needed.m
A guess is just that A Guess. If you are being overtaken you will be overtaken on the starboard side as per protocol. As such you need to manoeuvre to port as far as is safe to do given opposing traffic.

As I have said before on this site, if you have thousands of tonnes bearing down on you, then appropriate action to save lives needs to be taken and maintaining course because you have " Right of Way" is not saving lives.
Rules are rules but never must they override common sense and experience.
There are many things wrong with this post.

First of all, there is no "protocol" about which side one vessel overtakes another from. It depends on the situation, aspects, etc. But since you are obligated to hold to the stb side of narrow channels and fairways (Rule 9(a)), very often you will be passed from the port side, and if you need to move, you will need to move to stb, the opposite of what you write.

Second, you have a mistaken idea of the meaning of holding course and speed when you are required to stand on. It has nothing to do with "right of way", and standing on is not a privilege, it is an obligation. When you are obligated to stand on, the reason for that is so that the encounter can be effectively controlled by the give-way vessel. It is the passive role; the give-way vessel plays the active role. The principle is that someone has to "hold still", while the other vessel maneuvers, so that a collision can be prevented in a systematic way. The Rules don't require you to stand on forever, only for a particular phase of an encounter. At a certain point defined by the Rules, you are allowed to maneuver, then required to maneuver, yourself. This procedure can be departed from when good seamanship requires it (Rule 2), but just ignoring the required procedure just out of ignorance of or disdain for the Rules, dressed up as "common sense", is not permitted and is not safe, and professionals will hate you for it.

Sorry for the rant, which many have heard before (sorry), but it's one worth repeating, considering how little so many recreational boats actually understand about collision avoidance.
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:43   #39
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

I've never heard of this overtake on the stbd side protocol.
In a narrow channel it would be normal for the overtaking vessel to pass the vessel being overtaken on her port side.

Outside of narrow channels, I was taught that if it was safe to do so, pass the other vessel on her port side. This leaves the overtaken vessel with her stbd clear and the ability to alter to stbd if another situation should arise,i.e she finds herself in a crossing situation with another vessel.

Its not a written rule, just good manners.
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:01   #40
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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One shot blast is enough to let traffic know that clearance is needed.m
That is not what one short blast means.
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:06   #41
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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I've never heard of this overtake on the stbd side protocol.
In a narrow channel it would be normal for the overtaking vessel to pass the vessel being overtaken on her port side.

Outside of narrow channels, I was taught that if it was safe to do so, pass the other vessel on her port side. This leaves the overtaken vessel with her stbd clear and the ability to alter to stbd if another situation should arise,i.e she finds herself in a crossing situation with another vessel.

Its not a written rule, just good manners.
'and in narrow channels ' common sense - where yachts and other lesser mortals are involved.

More on my views on openwater overtaking to follow.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:52   #42
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

Have a few narrow channels to negotiate tomorrow, sailing up to Loch Goil, hopefully the submarines can undertake me.
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Old 30-06-2015, 15:18   #43
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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I've never heard of this overtake on the stbd side protocol.
In a narrow channel it would be normal for the overtaking vessel to pass the vessel being overtaken on her port side.

Outside of narrow channels, I was taught that if it was safe to do so, pass the other vessel on her port side. This leaves the overtaken vessel with her stbd clear and the ability to alter to stbd if another situation should arise,i.e she finds herself in a crossing situation with another vessel.

Its not a written rule, just good manners.

I should have clarified this a bit better, when overtaking another vessel from dead astern, or nearly dead astern, pass on her port side, otherwise, alter course to pass under her stern.
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Old 30-06-2015, 17:48   #44
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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Rule 34(d)
Quote:
When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle
I bolded what I imagine the captain meant by his signal, but it could have been done in the colloquial sense as a "wake up" signal, just to make you aware that he was there, and you should stay out of his way.
I would say that this ship managed to sound its horn at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle! Not sure it really helped all that much.

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Old 30-06-2015, 18:38   #45
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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I should have clarified this a bit better, when overtaking another vessel from dead astern, or nearly dead astern, pass on her port side, otherwise, alter course to pass under her stern.
Moving away from yachts and narrow channels.... my experience and view is quite different.

On the same course and overtaking in open water, all other things being equal, I would always alter to starboard and leave the overtaken ship to my port.

The reasoning? ( which I have seen validated often enough although once is enough)
Speed differential is often quite small , often less than a knot, so you may be overtaking her for some time....
While abeam of her a ship appears right ahead and puts you in an end on situation... clear water to starboard and you have no problems.... with a ship a few cables away on your starboard beam you will have some 'issues'.... esp if the watchkeeper ( on the other ship) insists on maintaining course and speed and is on the stbd bridge wing having a smoke while enjoying the sunset....

Likewise if you find a ship , esp a small craft, on a steady bearing on your starboard bow.... bloke you are overtaking is happy with his clearing distance astern of her and is once again maintaining course and speed.... once again you are in a bit of a spot.

I always liked clear water on my starboard hand.
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