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Old 28-06-2015, 06:53   #16
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

Perhaps he was a Nervous Norvus fan.

“I'm burning up the highway early this morn
I'm passing everybody oh nothing but corn
Man outa my way I don't drive with my horn

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Old 28-06-2015, 10:50   #17
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
In North America:
1 short blast (1 second) I want to pass you on my port side
2 short blasts I want to pass you on my starboard side
3 short blasts Engine is in reverse
5 short blasts Danger, or do not understand approaching boat's intentions

It seems a little more complicated in Europe.
https://www2.unece.org/wiki/download...2127549&api=v2
Gord, those are listed under the Canadian Modifications. The signals DH describes are listed in the main section of the ColRegs.

You can use either the Canadian ones you listed or the international ones DH mentioned depending on circumstances.

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Old 28-06-2015, 11:49   #18
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

Pass you on my port side is ambiguous, I was taught to use the expression "leave you to port" which means if we hit, you will hit my port rail.
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Old 28-06-2015, 11:55   #19
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

Don't be ridiculous, he's a professional ships Captain! 2 beeps at Dockhead, 2 beeps at the hot chic walking the canal side, and one long beep at the damn ships cat to get it off the Bridge!

Very good MarkJ! You got me laughing, good thing I had already swallowed my coffee!
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Old 28-06-2015, 12:04   #20
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sounds pretty crazy. Anyone ever heard of a boat being confiscated for a COLREGS violation? Especially with no accident?

What country was this in?
San Francisco Bay, USA.

Testosterone-laden Homeland Security Coast Guard type?
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Old 28-06-2015, 14:11   #21
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I don't know whether he altered course -- I guess probably yes, which means I was probably impeding him, but it's hard not to do in this situation, and a small alteration to overtake is not exactly a big imposition.

I was not as far over to stbd as I could have been. I would have moved over, but it was already risk of collision so I needed to hold course and speed.

There was no traffic from the other lane.
A small alteration to port can be a very big imposition to a big ship in narrow waters.
Bugger the rules ... you should have been as far as you could get to stbd before he honked you...after he honked you you were obliged to get as far as possible to stbd and well out of his way.

Oh well, the fact that he waved was a sign that he wasn't drafting a letter to 'Colregs Infractions International'... your boat isn't going to be confiscated and your children sold to a white slaver.

How narrow was narrow? This narrow? ( I don't go this way any more... I take a short cut around the back of the island....)
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Old 28-06-2015, 18:00   #22
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

As a total digression, I am looking at the Euro "Overtaking Signals" on Page 6.

Case 1

"I wish to overtake you on your Port Side"

"Agreed: Overtake on my Starboard Side"

??????
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Old 29-06-2015, 20:39   #23
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Perhaps he was a Nervous Norvus fan.

I'm burning up the highway early this morn
I'm passing everybody oh nothing but corn
Man outa my way I don't drive with my horn

Gord,

I thought I'd heard them all. Thanks.

As the rules state, you must make intensions clear. Signal or radio or both. I will almost always hail the other vessel on the VHS. Easy with AIS - we know who he is. I will have anticipated the big boat's need and suggest our dodge or hold course, yielding the best option for the least maneuverable boat. 50 miles in the St Mary's from Lake Huron to Lake Superior will keep you on your toes with practice. There are a few dog-legs that will make the ore boats swing wide. The other pilots always seem happy to know we are alert & accommodating.

As was noted by another poster, cable ferries rarely sound signals, wait, respond to radio contact. They also display no common courtesy or common sense. These things seem to be on mindless automatic control.
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Old 30-06-2015, 02:11   #24
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

5 blasts- Can not see or avoid you - you need to take evasive action. ie, You are on your own.
if a ship is approaching you in light airs, start you engine and save yourself. Don't play chicken with the big boys, they can't manoeuvre at short notice.
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Old 30-06-2015, 03:54   #25
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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Originally Posted by Waboson HR352 View Post
5 blasts- Can not see or avoid you - you need to take evasive action. ie, You are on your own.
if a ship is approaching you in light airs, start you engine and save yourself. Don't play chicken with the big boys, they can't manoeuvre at short notice.
That's not what five blasts means. It's this:

"When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle." Rule 34(d)


If you are being overtaken, your "action to avoid collision" is to hold your course and speed, so that the overtaking vessel can get around you, unless the overtaking vessel can't get around you and can't slow down -- and there is no special signal for that. Absolutely not "take evasive action" -- that's crazy and can cause an accident. The last thing you should be doing when someone is passing you is to dart around unpredictably. Even if you get a signal telling you he is taking you on one side or the other, you shouldn't assume that he's actually going to do that, and maneuver at the same time. It's really important for you to "hold still" and let him get around you -- let him control the maneuver. That's the "privilege" of the overtaking vessel.

We can imagine that a ship overtaking us might want us to be aware that he is there so that we don't make any unexpected moves -- so that we are sure to hold course and speed. I guess five blasts could mean "I'm not sure you saw me and am not sure whether your intention is to hold course and speed as you should".

But I would much more expect two longs and one short, or two longs and two shorts, which would indicate by which side he intends to overtake.


In my case -- perhaps he just gave the wrong signal, and was waving to say "sorry", like we do sometimes when we make a mistake when driving. He had enough room and passed me with a good cable of clearance, so I don't think I was impeding him.
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Old 30-06-2015, 04:21   #26
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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That's not what five blasts means. It's this:

"When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle." Rule 34(d)


If you are being overtaken, your "action to avoid collision" is to hold your course and speed, so that the overtaking vessel can get around you, unless the overtaking vessel can't get around you and can't slow down -- and there is no special signal for that. Absolutely not "take evasive action" -- that's crazy and can cause an accident. The last thing you should be doing when someone is passing you is to dart around unpredictably. Even if you get a signal telling you he is taking you on one side or the other, you shouldn't assume that he's actually going to do that, and maneuver at the same time. It's really important for you to "hold still" and let him get around you -- let him control the maneuver. That's the "privilege" of the overtaking vessel.

We can imagine that a ship overtaking us might want us to be aware that he is there so that we don't make any unexpected moves -- so that we are sure to hold course and speed. I guess five blasts could mean "I'm not sure you saw me and am not sure whether your intention is to hold course and speed as you should".

But I would much more expect two longs and one short, or two longs and two shorts, which would indicate by which side he intends to overtake.


In my case -- perhaps he just gave the wrong signal, and was waving to say "sorry", like we do sometimes when we make a mistake when driving. He had enough room and passed me with a good cable of clearance, so I don't think I was impeding him.
I know the ColRegs say to maintain course and speed, but when a small craft, or any craft is being over taken in a narrow channel it's customary to tuck over to one side, usually the starboard side, to give the guy some room, at least in North America.

North Americans are somewhat unique in the amount of navigation they do in narrow channels due to factors like the Mississippi, McKenzie, St Lawrence River, ICW, Great Lakes etc. Not tucking over to stbd is likely to get you 5 short around here.

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Old 30-06-2015, 04:27   #27
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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I know the ColRegs say to maintain course and speed, but when a small craft, or any craft is being over taken in a narrow channel it's customary to tuck over to one side, usually the starboard side, to give the guy some room, at least in North America.

North Americans are somewhat unique in the amount of navigation they do in narrow channels due to factors like the Mississippi, McKenzie, St Lawrence River, ICW, Great Lakes etc. Not tucking over to stbd is likely to get you 5 short around here.
That sounds reasonable to me, and that's they way I used to do it in the ICW when cruising SW Florida, which is very narrow. But you need to be very, very, very sure that he's not overtaking you from starboard, or you'll maneuver into him! And in that case it will sure as hell be your fault, if that matters to anyone.

Another good thing to do is to get right out of the channel, if you can. That doesn't work in the ICW, of course. And if you could get out of the channel, then maybe you shouldn't have been there in the first place!


If he has enough room on both sides, I think it's better to do what the Rules say. Two vessels maneuvering at once in close quarters is really dangerous, something I think many recreational boaters don't understand.
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Old 30-06-2015, 05:16   #28
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

I think there might be a need for interpretation here as one must decide whether 9(a) or 17(a)(I) is the dominant rule in the given circumstances.

It's definitely going to be situational, and a judgement call which rule you are going to more closely adhere to.

I do spend a great deal of time engaged in river navigation, formerly a navigator on CG buoy tenders, my last gig was operating passenger vessels on the Niagara River, now my yacht club is on the St Lawrence, so from practical experience I like to scoot over to stbd most of the time.

I totally agree though- you want to avoid confusing signals.having said that, if you're going to scoot over I would recommend a course alteration that is large enough to be readily apparent to the other vessel and to avoid a succession of small alterations.

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Old 30-06-2015, 05:23   #29
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

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I think there might be a need for interpretation here as one must decide whether 9(a) or 17(a)(I) is the dominant rule in the given circumstances.

It's definitely going to be situational, and a judgement call which rule you are going to more closely adhere to.

I do spend a great deal of time engaged in river navigation, formerly a navigator on CG buoy tenders, my last gig was operating passenger vessels on the Niagara River, now my yacht club is on the St Lawrence, so from practical experience I like to scoot over to stbd most of the time.

I totally agree though- you want to avoid confusing signals.having said that, if you're going to scoot over I would recommend a course alteration that is large enough to be readily apparent to the other vessel and to avoid a succession of small alterations.
p

I bow to your vastly greater experience, of course.

"Scooting", if that's the thing to do, should certainly be done not only with a big alteration, but in plenty of time not to risk getting tangled up with a conflicting maneuver by the overtaking vessel.

I guess it will help a lot if you are hard over on the stbd side of the channel (as 9a requires) -- this might nearly eliminate the chance that he wants to pass you on the stbd side (leaving you to port). Then if you "scoot" to stbd there's little risk.


Edit: By the way, I don't think there is any conflict between Rule 9 and Rule 17 -- Rule 17 requires you to stand on once a risk of collision arises even if you have failed to follow 9(a) and even if you are in violation of 9(b) and are impeding a vessel which can only navigate in a narrow channel. This last was something I found impossible to understand for a long time and which required a lot of study to figure out.
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Old 30-06-2015, 05:42   #30
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Re: Sailing ALONG A Narrow Channel

I agree, there is no conflict in the rules, but as the situation develops, you will no doubt be running your options through your head. You will ask yourself- "should I stand on here, or should I just get out of this guy's way".

What I'm saying is the ColRegs allow for either option- depending on the circumstances. In an overtaking situation- boats- even ships need to be pretty close to one another for risk of collision to exist because the rate of closure is so slow.

I don't imagine scooting is an internationally recognised nautical term. It's just what I call edging over to the side of the channel. I'm not sure if there is a proper nautical term for it.

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