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Old 28-01-2011, 11:37   #106
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HappySeagull: QUOTE "It's an old old story.Halifax Explosion blew the city up .If I recall,two ships ran into each other by continually altering TOWARDS each other trying to stay clear." QUOTE

Yes! that is why COLREGS specifically state that one vessel is the stand on vessel, and should not alter course nor speed.

The gist of this discussion is the sailers on board DO NOT consider tacking to be an alteration in course, while everyone else considers it to be a 90DEG course change. I don't think anyone can deny, the lowest risk of collision is to not cross the path in front of a faster moving vehicle. Weather is a broud term. Good seamanship is not taking your vessel out in risky conditions. It doesn't always mean 30ft seas and hurricane force winds, in fact if you are prepaired for these conditions and the boat is made for it go ahead, but it may be something as simple as low visibility if you don't have radar, or a prevaling wind against a long lee shore, or excessive high speed traffic with a headwind, and limited manuverablility, or low tides in a shallow area. Any of these can put your vessel in danger unneccessarily, and could be avoided by waiting for better conditions.
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Old 28-01-2011, 12:08   #107
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One of the goals of the Rules is to avoid a situation where the Rules need to be applied. Had the sailboat applied good seamanship by taking an early and apparent action and tacked away early rather than crossing the power boats bow then the Rules never need to come in play.

Without getting into the details of the Rules, I see the sailboat as the stand-on vessel until the sailboat in his own judgment determines that the powerboat is not taking proper action to avoid a collision. At this point they both become the give-way vessel and if there is a collision they are both at fault.

If both vessels are maneuverable, it is almost always the case that both will be held at least partially at fault in court.

On a personal note, if you are getting into a situation where the Rules will soon apply and you are going to soon be the stand-on vessel, then consider maneuvering now so the Rules never even need to apply. I too often see people who from a quite a ways out want to play a game of "You change...I'm going to hold my ground." That is so childish. It's no big deal to do someone else a favor in order to help him out. Professional mariners especially really appreciate this since so many recreational boaters see them as the enemy.

Also on a personal note, give commercial vessels a wider clearance well ahead of time even if you are the soon to be stand-on vessel. These people have hard earned, expensive licenses to protect that provide them with their livelihood. They are hard at work in their "office". You are out there having fun.

Hey...I give trucks on the freeway a break.
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Old 28-01-2011, 12:47   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
HappySeagull: QUOTE "It's an old old story.Halifax Explosion blew the city up .If I recall,two ships ran into each other by continually altering TOWARDS each other trying to stay clear." QUOTE

Yes! that is why COLREGS specifically state that one vessel is the stand on vessel, and should not alter course nor speed.

The gist of this discussion is the sailers on board DO NOT consider tacking to be an alteration in course, while everyone else considers it to be a 90DEG course change. I don't think anyone can deny, the lowest risk of collision is to not cross the path in front of a faster moving vehicle. Weather is a broud term. Good seamanship is not taking your vessel out in risky conditions. It doesn't always mean 30ft seas and hurricane force winds, in fact if you are prepaired for these conditions and the boat is made for it go ahead, but it may be something as simple as low visibility if you don't have radar, or a prevaling wind against a long lee shore, or excessive high speed traffic with a headwind, and limited manuverablility, or low tides in a shallow area. Any of these can put your vessel in danger unneccessarily, and could be avoided by waiting for better conditions.
I'll try again.
It's the nature nay-the definition!-of a sailing vessel to tack in a channel.It's a sailing vessel.Stay clear.It calls for skill on the part of the motorvessel.That's when a motorvessel crew can be proud of their learning and experience.When they can do this RIGHT!When sailboat hardly notices(but trust me-it will!The crew will likely wave in commendation)

I won't opine to why-for of the sailing vessels FINAL maneuvers yet.The motorvessel is at fault to start.It created the situation.It can't escape that by reviewing the sailing vessels desperate attempts and apportioning blame to them.
But....When the burdened vessel does not make an early and plain course correction,or otherwise make it plain as the burdened vessel,to stay clear,collision is imminent.
Anything can happen per assumption and instinct and actual conditions but,the colregs have a few suggestions.Avoid going to port at all costs iIt's roughly speaking,the most common "collider".If both parties go starboard in the imminent event,as a general rule,collision can be avoided.You might think this odd in the sailboat's perspective -perhaps they reach off-gather speed and hole the MV!but actually as they draw near,the sailboat cleaves to that and per the diagrm goes astern of MV.because the anticipation of said accredited panic maneuver informs the sailing vessel that it must do this early enough to avoid collision.The power vessel,in it's panic,at the same time?also cleaves to accredited maneuver turns to starbrd and sticks her forefoot in the bank?Hopefully not.Correct Panic Anticipation again informs the motor vessel it MAY need a crash turn to starbrd and so it keeps room for that . ....Also,morenlikely,MV would see SV's neccesarily earlier turn and therefore not need that.It's too bad that correct "anticipation"did not occur beforehand.
lso,if EITHER party had done this,without the other doing it,chances are,no foul.

Sailboat would NEVER have tacked and lose way ahead of MVYou might ask what about an incident on the other side of the channel?well,that's different but go strbrd still applies even if it is an early tack to do it...and inbound clumsy vessel again panics to strbrd.No Foul.

Just more really bad piloting.Re-label SV in diagram as Cross Channel-ferry It might relieve this harping against sailboats....
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Old 28-01-2011, 13:35   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
One of the goals of the Rules is to avoid a situation where the Rules need to be applied. Had the sailboat applied good seamanship by taking an early and apparent action and tacked away early rather than crossing the power boats bow then the Rules never need to come in play.

Without getting into the details of the Rules, I see the sailboat as the stand-on vessel until the sailboat in his own judgment determines that the powerboat is not taking proper action to avoid a collision. At this point they both become the give-way vessel and if there is a collision they are both at fault.

If both vessels are maneuverable, it is almost always the case that both will be held at least partially at fault in court.

On a personal note, if you are getting into a situation where the Rules will soon apply and you are going to soon be the stand-on vessel, then consider maneuvering now so the Rules never even need to apply. I too often see people who from a quite a ways out want to play a game of "You change...I'm going to hold my ground." That is so childish. It's no big deal to do someone else a favor in order to help him out. Professional mariners especially really appreciate this since so many recreational boaters see them as the enemy.

Also on a personal note, give commercial vessels a wider clearance well ahead of time even if you are the soon to be stand-on vessel. These people have hard earned, expensive licenses to protect that provide them with their livelihood. They are hard at work in their "office". You are out there having fun.

Hey...I give trucks on the freeway a break.
Good advice.But not applicable here.
I absolutely agree with your sentiments and might say Rules come in the breach of common sense except they are Common Sense.Or as close as many wise men can together write down .
As an example-not a slight-You might have made a suggestive assumption on the vessel "playing a game".Of course,likely so,but unfortunately you can't know that just seeing em ahead of you from the wheelhouse..They may be asleep(bad lookout) short-sighted or having a stroke.Despite appearances it might be a "commercial vessel" as rugged and hoary as any.It might even be the doctor who is out relaxing before he operates on your father tomorrow....They may even be totally and irrevocably at fault and in imminent danger of dying by their folly.But as you know,there's no excuse to run em down That's the "Rules".There's the stress.

That's what pros get paid for.The constant aggravation of bad pilotage.


We had an incident here with a BC ferry ran over a MV while they were blundering hopelessly in front of it.Ferry thought,"it's a game-wake-up Jerks! and tooted Get outta-my-way".Wrong move.Death followed.MV had the right of it too.Lots of searoom and No excuse for ferry to stand on.Even if you argued possible scalds in the galley.Ferry Corp paid.Ok,rich and dead's no good but where's that Ferry Captain now?How's his sleep?and I wonder what he'd do next time?
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Old 28-01-2011, 14:20   #110
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I'll try again.
It's the nature nay-the definition!-of a sailing vessel to tack in a channel.It's a sailing vessel.Stay clear.
I'm sorry, but -- with respect -- Rule 9. It is the sailboat in this case which is the give-way vessel, not the motor vessel (or in the OP's original case, the deep-draft sailboat under motor and constrained to the channel).

There's nothing in the world wrong with tacking in a channel, but one doing so should avoid interfering with vessels which can't maneuver out of the channel. It's simple to luff up for a minute, or heave-to, to let the other vessel pass by. It's required by the Colregs.

It is a terrible misconception that a sailboat under sail has some kind of "right of way" (which doesn't exist at sea in any case), and can sail wherever and however it likes, and all other vessels simply have to stay clear somehow. This is not the case. The Colregs simply don't work that way, and every sailor should read them from time to time.

In open water, a sailboat under sail encountering a power vessel in a potential close-quarters situation should hold its course and speed and let the power vessel maneuver first to prevent the close quarters situation from developing. This is different from right of way (I'm repeating myself, but it's worth repeating).

But if a sailboat under sail in a channel which is not constrained by draft encounters a motor vessel which is constrained by draft, then in that case it is the motor vessel which is required to maintain course and speed while the sailboat maneuvers -- luffs up, tacks back, heaves-to, whatever -- to prevent the close-quarters situation from occurring.

Sailboats under sail are also the give-way vessel with regard to motor vessels in a host of other situations -- when overtaking, for example, or when the motor vessel is fishing with gear in the water, etc., etc. ,etc.

Let's once and for all give up the idea that just because we are making way under sail, we can do whatever we like -- include tack right under the bows of another vessel -- and it's up to everyone else to simply get out of our way however they can. That is not how the Colregs work and that is extremely poor seamanship.
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Old 28-01-2011, 15:34   #111
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You can tell from some of the postings that some people know and follow the rules. But some use them as excuses to do stupid things and to explain themselves when they are just being an A-hole!

In the end follow the rules, be courteous to others (this is where the rule yellers fail), and don't assume that others are going to follow the rules. Which is why that everyone is reasonable topic in the rules comes from.
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Old 28-01-2011, 15:52   #112
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Another point not addressed in the OP were traffic conditions... if the sailboat tacked it may have put itself on course for an exact same situation with something going the opposite way... without speed built up... more vulnerable... so maintaining speed and course was the best thing...
The MV should have been watching and anticipating all traffic movements... ahead and astern.. if they were the only two in the fairway I'd be the 1st to call the sail an Ass****...
But we're only getting a very abreviated text book example... some are giving text book answers... others viewing it more from a 'what if' perpective...
I've sat on this sailboat and viewed various options and scenarios and the only time I'd give way is if we were alone out there... but would have signaled my intent...
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Old 28-01-2011, 17:30   #113
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I'm sorry, but -- with respect -- Rule 9. It is the sailboat in this case which is the give-way vessel, not the motor vessel (or in the OP's original case, the deep-draft sailboat under motor and constrained to the channel).
We haven't actually heard from the OP whether it was a narrow channel or not. And rule 9 does not make sailboats the give-way vessel in a narrow channel - the sailboat is required to not impede; in a steering and sailing situation the normal stand-on/give-way assignments are in effect. It should also be noted that a 45 ft MV, being under 20m, is also required to not impede.
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Old 28-01-2011, 17:47   #114
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Bewitchedost 57 "back about 6"!.
Post 57 and the back 6" is a red herring - It's posted by Capt Bill, not posted by the OP.

Take a look at the picture below. 3 situations.

Who is stand on vessel?

I'd say in the first one, we don't know because we don't know who is overtaking who,

on the second one, the sailboat is stand on as it is being overtaken

the third one, the power boat is stand on as it is being overtaken.

The relative speed of the vessels determines who is stand on and who is not, because it determines who is being overtaken
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Old 28-01-2011, 19:08   #115
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Post 57 and the back 6" is a red herring - It's posted by Capt Bill, not posted by the OP.

Take a look at the picture below. 3 situations.

Who is stand on vessel?

I'd say in the first one, we don't know because we don't know who is overtaking who,

on the second one, the sailboat is stand on as it is being overtaken

the third one, the power boat is stand on as it is being overtaken.

The relative speed of the vessels determines who is stand on and who is not, because it determines who is being overtaken
All three are crossing situations. None are 22.5 abaft the beam, which determines overtaken vs crossing.

In the first case the sail boat is clearly stand on. Rule 18

In the rest, as they are crossing situations, Rule 18 applies as well.



Quote:
Rule 13

A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with
another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her
beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she
is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the
sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
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Old 28-01-2011, 20:53   #116
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The gist of this discussion is the sailers on board DO NOT consider tacking to be an alteration in course, while everyone else considers it to be a 90DEG course change.
OK, Kate has the answer. Again.

Clearly, the boat without an engine was the stand on vessel. So she should have maintained her course. Then she could have driven straight up onto the shore (assuming she was either a cat or had a lifting daggerboard), the crew could have gone for a cup of coffee, and wouldn't have bothered any other power boats; who clearly are in way too much of a hurry to hang back and let their sailing counterparts have some clear water.

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Old 29-01-2011, 03:48   #117
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All three are crossing situations. None are 22.5 abaft the beam, which determines overtaken vs crossing.

In the first case the sail boat is clearly stand on. Rule 18

In the rest, as they are crossing situations, Rule 18 applies as well.
Indeed. Unless:

1. The motor boat is operating in a channel, and if for any reason cannot operate safely outside the channel, in which case it is the stand-on vessel. Rule 9.

or

2. In a traffic separation scheme area. Rule 10.

or

3. If the motor boat is not under command, restricted in her ability to maneuver, or engaged in fishing with gear out, or constained by draft and showing appropriate signals. Rule 18.

In all of these cases, the sailboat is the give-way vessel and the motorboat should hold course and speed while the sailboat maneuvers out of the way. A sailboat is NOT automatically the stand-on vessel in all cases just because it is under sail.
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Old 29-01-2011, 03:52   #118
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Clearly, the boat without an engine was the stand on vessel.
Whether or not a boat has an engine is irrelevant to the Colregs. It is only relevant whether or not a boat is using an engine or not. A boat without an engine will be the give-way vessel in certain situations just like any other sailboat operating under sail.
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Old 29-01-2011, 04:53   #119
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Whether or not a boat has an engine is irrelevant to the Colregs. It is only relevant whether or not a boat is using an engine or not. A boat without an engine will be the give-way vessel in certain situations just like any other sailboat operating under sail.
Absolutely agreed. And I'm only assuming the smaller boat didn't have an engine. Otherwise, they would surely have switched it on, so as not to cause so many problems for other waterway users. If, of course, they had a brain, and not a deathwish.

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Old 29-01-2011, 05:45   #120
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In all of these cases, the sailboat is the give-way vessel and the motorboat should hold course and speed while the sailboat maneuvers out of the way. A sailboat is NOT automatically the stand-on vessel in all cases just because it is under sail.
No, no, no! It is not a give-way vessel in any of these instances - it is required to not impede - big difference.
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