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Old 27-01-2011, 12:05   #91
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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Rule 13 should apply and the sailboat is the give away vessel.
Some folks are just no fun....
If your going down its your right of way.... some engines ain't big enough... but then I guess you'll say "Then they should not be out there.."
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Old 27-01-2011, 12:16   #92
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Originally Posted by Saucy Sailoress View Post
True, but whilst it may not be possible to go straight upwind, it as always possible to bear away and go behind a boat. That requires a little patience, but makes a lot of sense. Captain and I have constant arguments about this, esp during races; but since it is I WMBO, we usually bear away and and go behind. Much less stressful. Especially now the Captain doesn't bother arguing any more.
And I agree.SOMETIMES .Further from what Boatman said,we'll never get out of the harbour-we'll be a nuisance ALLDAY reaching backnforth!
As to motoring,waiting,and all that,well,why oh why should a sailboat stay in port?Too much traffic?Why can't a powerboat exercise their throttle and clutch for a moment instead?C,mon.Yet more,in my own case, my motor won't push the boat against sea and wind.It's for calms. an Auxiliary by definition.I am guessing I share that outlook with the sailboat herein.

WERE I them,I would certainly cringe at the thought of hitting the rip outside the channel unprepared with no sail up and an outboard pitching out.I would indeed be a hazard.An Auxiliary Sailboat is under BEST control sailing.Not powering.
...Plus,how does the powervessel know what your INTENT is? in an earlier post,I read something from the actual sailboat involved.They TRIED to accommodate the powerboat.But the powerboat misread their intent and made the situation fuzzier by slowing down.
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Old 27-01-2011, 12:44   #93
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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Rule 13 should apply and the sailboat is the give away vessel.
How do you come by that?The sailboat was downchannel, when the "upchannel"motorvessel also Proceeding downchannel saw it.There's a diagram upthread.Note that it's mentioned "Yes,it looked like that except I was about 6" further up".....You cannot maneuver past a vessel,look abaft the beam and and say,"AHA!I am now the OVERTAKEN vessel! No worries!"

You remain the giveway overtaking vessel until you are CLEAR of the stand-on vessel.I see this too ocassionally.Somebody speeds by,STOPS directly ahead on my course and commences fishing.Nope.Can't do that.You are not clear of me.
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Old 27-01-2011, 13:00   #94
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"Yes,it looked like that except I was about 6" further up".....You cannot maneuver past a vessel,look abaft the beam and and say,"AHA!I am now the OVERTAKEN vessel! No worries!"

You remain the giveway overtaking vessel until you are CLEAR of the stand-on vessel.I see this too ocassionally.Somebody speeds by,STOPS directly ahead on my course and commences fishing.Nope.Can't do that.You are not clear of me.
I was just assuming that the sailboat was the overtaking vessel. Apparently the power boater was the first overtaking vessel and I stand corrected.

Damn, I wish this snow would go away.
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Old 27-01-2011, 13:05   #95
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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Damn, I wish this snow would go away.
Yeah, then we can get back to the "What Kinda Varnish Should I Use?" threads.
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Old 27-01-2011, 13:31   #96
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Ahaaaaa.... the good old 'KISS' threads...
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Old 27-01-2011, 13:36   #97
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The sailboat was doing what sailboats normally do when sailing to windward up a channel: frequently tacking back and forth across the channel. Since the sailboat was sailing (not motoring) and was the overtaken vessel, it was the stand-on vessel. The overtaking powerboat was the give-way vessel and should have maneuvered around the sailboat and anticipated its tacking maneuvers. Also, a powerboat closely passing a sailboat should consider whether traveling several times faster than the sailboat is a prudent speed.

If the powerboat (auxiliary sailboat under power in this case) turned off his "iron genny" and tried sailing into the wind up the channel under sail alone, he'd likely change his original perspective.
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Old 27-01-2011, 20:22   #98
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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post

If the powerboat (auxiliary sailboat under power in this case) turned off his "iron genny" and tried sailing into the wind up the channel under sail alone, he'd likely change his original perspective.
True .If both crews were suddenly switched and had to replay I wonder if the same thing would happen ! ...But there's nothing WRONG with motoring and then ,too, sailing a larger boat to weather in a narrow? channel, shorthanded, is perhaps impossible.It's an interesting subject that draws so many opinions....
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Old 27-01-2011, 20:47   #99
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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Since the sailboat was sailing (not motoring) and was the overtaken vessel, it was the stand-on vessel.
Mark, I think we all agree that the sailboat was the stand-on vessel. But therein lies the rub: it didn't maintain course and speed. Instead, it tacked under the bows of the overtaking vessel.

It had options to avoid this, as have been pointed out. It could have short-tacked, it could have dipped to take the powered vessel's stern, or it could have crossed properly and then luffed up to avoid impeding the vessel it just crossed.

At that point, had it taken any of the above courses of action, I suspect that powered vessel would have been fine with the situation, even though he had already been impeded improperly. But now salt is rubbed into the wound, because the sailboat tacks back and impedes the powered vessel a second time. (!!!)

That's just stupid.
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Old 27-01-2011, 21:17   #100
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That's just stupid.
Umm....be nice?

You may be right. However my feeling...based on the sketchy non-specific description...is that the overtaking powered boat should have anticipated that the sailboat is going to want to tack back before hitting whatever obstruction was on the right. Apparently the channel was more spacious on the left side so once the sailboat got back over there would have been a more prudent time to pass clear. Often a little patience is all it takes.
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Old 27-01-2011, 21:35   #101
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Umm....be nice?
Please note that I'm not accusing anyone on this forum of being stupid. Just the sailboat who came back across the channel a second time to impede the same vessel as before.

There are two troubling circumstances to consider in this discussion. The first was pointed out by Boatman61, who observed that the sailboat may have felt that it tacked away at an appropriate distance. The first time I was ever disqualified from a race I felt that I'd tacked with plenty of room from the boat I'd fouled. But, in fact, I'd scared the other skipper, who didn't belong anywhere near a race course, out of his socks. I deserved the DSQ. During the protest hearing the race officer pointed out, kindly, that it didn't matter one iota how comfy I was with the lee-bow maneuver; if the protesting skipper felt the need to divert to avoid a collision, the penalty was mine.

The other consideration is that the sailboat quite possibly DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT THE POWERED VESSEL WAS THERE. Seriously. We sailors spend so much time fixating on our telltales that we're generally unaware of vessels approaching from astern. The biggest problem of a 20' sailboat in a fairway is that he'll assume that everyone else is going his speed, even if his VMG is only 1.3 knots. And, as we all know, sailboats are usually not equipped with rear-view mirrors.

So, yes, the sailboat's actions were just plain stupid. But that stupidity doesn't reflect on any of the participants in this excellent discussion.
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Old 27-01-2011, 22:56   #102
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Mark, I think we all agree that the sailboat was the stand-on vessel.
I don't think that's been demonstrated either way.....and I'm beginning to sit on the fence.

From the sketch below (if this is an accurate representation of what happened). The sailboat appears to be the overtaking boat and therefore the power boat is the stand on vessel.

The reasons being:
1. The sail boat is more than 22.5deg abaft the beam of the powerboat in both incidents.

2. The sailing boat is travelling faster since it's covering a longer distance than the powerboat in the same time period. (you have to be travelling faster through the water in order to overtake).

However, if you consider that the powerboat may have initially been traveling faster through the water than the sailboat before it came upon the sailboat, then it is the powerboat that would have come up more than 22.5 deg abaft the beam of the sailboat, and the power boat is give way boat.

For the second incident, I understand that the powerboat stopped somewhere near the 1st incident and then speeded up and ended up in the second incident (again putting itself in a position where it is give way boat?).

I think to establish what went on at the first incident, it needs to be determined who was travelling through the water more quickly in the moments leading up to the first incident.

And that would be the give way vessel under Rule 13 as it would have come up to the other vessel from the all important 22.5 deg behind the beam.
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Old 28-01-2011, 10:47   #103
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Mark, I think we all agree that the sailboat was the stand-on vessel. But therein lies the rub: it didn't maintain course and speed. Instead, it tacked under the bows of the overtaking vessel.

etc.
Sailboats can't "Maintain Course and speed" especially tacking in a channel.That's why they are standon vessels in many cases.STAY CLEAR.

We don't know WHY sailboat tacked.It is an assumption to call it "plain stupid".Actually,it APPEARS the sailboat was forced into a wrong assumption but no wonder-Motorvessel made two errors.

It's an old old story.Halifax Explosion blew the city up .If I recall,two ships ran into each other by continually altering TOWARDS each other trying to stay clear.
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Old 28-01-2011, 11:06   #104
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Good picture, this is exactly the situation, except move the power boat back about 6 inches.
Bewitchedost 57 "back about 6"!

and again.an Overtaking vessel STAYS clear.it does not become a vessel being overtaken as it overtakes! It remains the burdened vessel until it's over the horizon,if you like.It can't stop or slow or turn (to gain an imaginary advantage as port hand vessel!)It can't hoist sail and yell "Starboard tack!" or drop seine nets either to encumber the overtaken vessel.


And anyways "overtaking" is a point of contention and albeit a fact in practical terms,it's secondary to sailboat versus power in this instance.
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Old 28-01-2011, 11:17   #105
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So.... instead of pissing off this boat owner by passing his bow... you piss off the next power boat in line astern... sooner or later we're gonna piss off someone...
Grrr.... you're worse than Skipper.

It's lucky, then that most power boaters are so courteous to us beachcat-ers. Chivalry is not dead yet - not here in the Arab world, anyway!
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