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Old 26-01-2011, 19:51   #76
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Good picture, this is exactly the situation, except move the power boat back about 6 inches.
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Old 26-01-2011, 19:55   #77
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Another point, when this incident happened to me, I didn't know how to sail and had no idea why the sailboat was zig-zagging across a busy channel in front of other boats going 5-10 times its speed.
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Old 27-01-2011, 05:49   #78
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Originally Posted by rabend View Post
The 20 footer was in a borderline overtaking position which is 22.5 degrees abaft the beam, although that was hard to call. This did take place in US waters.

Bob
I have a hard time squaring this with your previous statements:

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Originally Posted by rabend View Post
The vessel under power slows as a 20 foot sailboat tacks from port to starboard directly across its bow. After the small boat passes and is well to starboard, the larger boat speeds up to cross behind the smaller boat's stern.
So what was it? Was the smaller boat going much faster than you? If that is the case, why did you need to slow down in the first crossing and how much did you then speed up for it to be a problem in the second crossing?

Can you maybe give us a sense of scale involved - where you in a channel? If so, how long and wide? Would the 20-footer also be constrained to the channel?
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Old 27-01-2011, 06:06   #79
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Originally Posted by rabend View Post
The wind was coming from dead ahead as surmised above. I was in the 45' sailboat under power, and here is the way I see it. I think the 20 footer should have tacked before creating immediate danger by crossing my path in the first place, since I was constrained by the right side of the channel and my 40,000 lb boat does not slow easily. When the 20 footer tacked back the other way, he again created immediate danger in a crossing situation, and my speed had not changed appreciably. On that basis, I believe he made two foolish moves, and Rule 9 seems to support that conclusion in its discussion about "crossing the fairway & impeding". He could have let me pass on either tack with little or no consequesce.

That said, I am responsible for avoiding immediate danger no matter who has the right of way, and a better move on my part would would have been to continue to slow down in anticipation of his second tack. Per the rules I passed just behind his stern with barely enough room to clear the right side of the channel. The other factor is that slowing to the point of steerage loss is not a good idea in a constrained area. My rule is to always give way when necessary since I am never in a hurry. Just my thoughts. Excellent discussion on this. Thanks

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You shouldn't use the phrase "right of way", but in my opinion your interpretation of the obligations of both skippers is correct.

You should have been holding course and speed until you were sure that they other skipper was not going to maneuver out of your way. At that point, you should have taken clear and decisive action (clear and decisive so that the other skipper sees and understands your intentions) to resolve the close quarters situation. It sounds like you more or less did that, but a different maneuver might have taken you further from the risk of collision.

I think that the other skipper was behaving based on the widespread misconception that if you are under sail, you have some kind of absolute "right of way", and that you can sail however you like and in whatever direction without any regard to traffic around you, and everyone who is moving under power just has to figure out some way to avoid you. This of course is very, very wrong, and dangerous.
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Old 27-01-2011, 08:38   #80
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I think that the other skipper was behaving based on the widespread misconception that if you are under sail, you have some kind of absolute "right of way", and that you can sail however you like and in whatever direction without any regard to traffic around you, and everyone who is moving under power just has to figure out some way to avoid you. This of course is very, very wrong, and dangerous.

I think dockhead nailed it. The whole point of this discussion is that nothing in COLREGS support intentionally creating a close quarters situation, and good seamanship dictates avoiding putting your vessel in danger of a collision.
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Old 27-01-2011, 09:08   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
I think dockhead nailed it. The whole point of this discussion is that nothing in COLREGS support intentionally creating a close quarters situation, and good seamanship dictates avoiding putting your vessel in danger of a collision.
But also bear in mind the sailboats perspective.... he may well have felt all was under control...
remember how close we get to each other when racing... a hairs breath...
what seemed like a close call to the 45ftr may well have been room for a football stadium from the sailboats view of things..
No collision occured and traffic in a fairway must have consideration for all other vessels ability's to progress along it at a reasonable pace... else places like Poole Harbour would be awash with boats feathering their sails for vessels under power... COLREGS are in the main principles of Courtesy on the water... its just some are more courteous than others...
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Old 27-01-2011, 09:15   #82
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I retract my earlier opinion based on the poorly worded initial query that did not (in my mind) clarify whether the sailboat was going up or downwind vis-a-vis the powered vessel. I saw this as two boats on the same course in a fairway or otherwise restricted channel, with the powered vessel overtaking a sailboat making broad tacks. Others see it as an opposing approach. My opinion would differ pretty sharply in the two circumstances.

Besides, these arguments get pedantic pretty quickly and I've got to go fix boats...
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Old 27-01-2011, 09:21   #83
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But also bear in mind the sailboats perspective.... he may well have felt all was under control...
remember how close we get to each other when racing... a hairs breath...
what seemed like a close call to the 45ftr may well have been room for a football stadium from the sailboats view of things..
No collision occured and traffic in a fairway must have consideration for all other vessels ability's to progress along it at a reasonable pace... else places like Poole Harbour would be awash with boats feathering their sails for vessels under power... COLREGS are in the main principles of Courtesy on the water... its just some are more courteous than others...
True enough. Still tacking for the stern instead of the bow of the power boat would have made for a much less eventful day.
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Old 27-01-2011, 10:06   #84
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"The wind was coming from dead ahead as surmised above. I was in the 45' sailboat under power, and here is the way I see it. I think the 20 footer should have tacked before creating immediate danger by crossing my path in the first place, since I was constrained by the right side of the channel and my 40,000 lb boat does not slow easily. When the 20 footer tacked back the other way, he again created immediate danger in a crossing situation, and my speed had not changed appreciably. On that basis, I believe he made two foolish moves, and Rule 9 seems to support that conclusion in its discussion about "crossing the fairway & impeding". He could have let me pass on either tack with little or no consequesce."


Don't take this personally.I'm exercising a petpeeve.And thanks for TRYING to stay clear..Most just keep going with a snarl to mask their ignorance.
But
Having a (mere)40000 lb boatdoes not make you the stand-on vessel.The rules don't make that kind of judgement except Grossly-ship versus boat.As to vessels constrained by their draft this applies to a tacking sailboat with a keel or CB - a draft similar to your own.

I ask you,if that were a huge barge being towed,that filled the whole channel side to side,would you not have to dawdle along behind it,waiting for it to get clear of the channel entirely?So,because it's not,you surmise you can get past.But it's your lookout as to how.

You saw the sailboat tacking back and forth ahead of you as you came down channel(ie:seaward) You are obliged to stay clear..staying clear is the thing.When the other vessel CANNOT hit you no matter WHEN it tacks you are Staying Clear.The other vessel should not be able to "get you" per your best judgement.Don't"Time it"to pass close astern (or as is the norm by my experience as close to the sailboat's stem as you can to create a wave that will kill the sailboat's way....)

Why were you "constrained "to the starboard side of the channel?Was there other traffic?Lots of details missing but there always are.

Since you first said the channel was "fairly wide" I assume the sketches above are misleading. If the channel was indeed this narrow(a creek!) ,and you cannot StayClear ,you can make appropriate signals.I am going to starboard,You are standing into Danger,My Vessel is not Under Command,I am going astern...(to wait) You saw the sailing vessel ahead of you DOWN CHANNEL in plenty of time and so in that way,you were overtaking in a narrow channel on top of being a small motorvessel confronting a smaller sailboat.



As to "Impeding by Crossing a channel or Fairway" Ferries large and small do it a lot.
People think too much.The sailboat was also doing this and between the two of you,the situation became dangerous.
.Or,You could even have maneuvered gently alongside and talked to them by the sound of it.

Hey thanks for trying.
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Old 27-01-2011, 10:40   #85
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True enough. Still tacking for the stern instead of the bow of the power boat would have made for a much less eventful day.
Indeed.
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Old 27-01-2011, 11:07   #86
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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
I think that the other skipper was behaving based on the widespread misconception that if you are under sail, you have some kind of absolute "right of way", and that you can sail however you like and in whatever direction without any regard to traffic around you, and everyone who is moving under power just has to figure out some way to avoid you. This of course is very, very wrong, and dangerous.

I think dockhead nailed it. The whole point of this discussion is that nothing in COLREGS support intentionally creating a close quarters situation, and good seamanship dictates avoiding putting your vessel in danger of a collision.
But the sailboat was doing what sailboats BY NECESSITY must.Tacking to windward to go down channel.That's why they have "right of way".(but NOT for all situations.It's not near as blythe .)

They are constrained by their propulsion system if you like-it is similar to being constrained by draft,or a vessel being towed or being a fishing vessel.Were this a fishing vessel,a tug-and tow,a dredge...who would deny that a motorvessel must"figure out some way to avoid it"?Further,it must do so plainly and ahead of time.If it doesn't,the sailboat(who are very used to seeing all manner of traffic PASS THEM while a motorboat tends to be in a stream )Knows that a close situation has developed THEN.A sailor's "spidy sense" is twigged by a developing situation.In fact it was noted way back in the thread that they knew it too.

As was noted earler,if a sailboat has to avoid encountering traffic,it would basically be luffing and aground on the breakwater of the dock..It's the nature of the beast.A tacking sailboat does cross backnforth across motorboats and they hate it,I know...."Why can't they just go straight like us?-Most inconsiderate of them"
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Old 27-01-2011, 11:14   #87
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But the sailboat was doing what sailboats BY NECESSITY must.Tacking to windward to go down channel.That's why they have "right of way".
True, but whilst it may not be possible to go straight upwind, it as always possible to bear away and go behind a boat. That requires a little patience, but makes a lot of sense. Captain and I have constant arguments about this, esp during races; but since it is I WMBO, we usually bear away and and go behind. Much less stressful. Especially now the Captain doesn't bother arguing any more.
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Old 27-01-2011, 11:36   #88
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True, but whilst it may not be possible to go straight upwind, it as always possible to bear away and go behind a boat. That requires a little patience, but makes a lot of sense. Captain and I have constant arguments about this, esp during races; but since it is I WMBO, we usually bear away and and go behind. Much less stressful. Especially now the Captain doesn't bother arguing any more.
So.... instead of pissing off this boat owner by passing his bow... you piss off the next power boat in line astern... sooner or later we're gonna piss off someone...
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Old 27-01-2011, 11:53   #89
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So.... instead of pissing off this boat owner by passing his bow... you piss off the next power boat in line astern... sooner or later we're gonna piss off someone...
Please see my post above about bicycles zig zagging in traffic. If there is that many power boats steaming out of the channel in a line. I would consider using the outboard, or waiting for a different wind, or going outside of peak traffic times, ... or if you don't have an outboard maybe one of those power boats can give you a tow
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Old 27-01-2011, 12:02   #90
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Rule 13 should apply and the sailboat is the give away vessel.
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