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Old 25-01-2011, 19:41   #16
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Originally Posted by KiteRider View Post
That being said, I sail out of a marina that shares a basin with a college sailing team/school. We come up with similar situations quite often and I usually give way more than necessary when the wind is blowing from the bay (and other vessels aren't in play) as I realize what a pain it can be to tack out of the basin under sail. The college kids appreciate it, plus they are students and I'd rather not run them over or have them hit me.
As the faculty advisor to a university sailing team, I thank you for your courteous contribution to higher education.
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Old 25-01-2011, 19:50   #17
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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
the sailboat's initial tack was improper. As the stand-on vessel in that crossing, it should have maintained its course and speed, which would have carried it over to the side of the fairway away from the power vessel. In a fairway, the short-tacking sailboat doesn't have the automatic right of way to impede passage of other vessels who constrained to navigate within that fairway. It impeded that passage the moment it caused the power vessel to reduce its speed.
It is a wide fairway as stated.. vessel under power on far right of fairway see's boat on tack heading to cross his bow... common sense dictates power alters course to port to pass astern of sail... this manouvere should have created enough room for both vessels to continue without further impediment..
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Old 25-01-2011, 20:09   #18
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I talked to the sailor of the 20 foot boat. She said:

"We were tacking out the main fairway. It's plenty wide. That guy in the reef crusher is motoring down left of center. We tack onto starboard and knew we could easily cross him and wait on the far left side as he passed. But as usual he's not familiar with tacking a small boat out the fairway and slows down. Now our plan is destroyed. There's no way we want to wait in irons for him to pass. He's practically stopped so we quickly tack back across his bow. It's close but there's no way he can hit us. Then he speeds up. You should have heard him yelling. Someone should tell him to simply maintain course and speed. The small boats will sail around him. We won't hit him, we can tack away in an instant."
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Old 25-01-2011, 20:15   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
the sailboat's initial tack was improper. As the stand-on vessel in that crossing, it should have maintained its course and speed, which would have carried it over to the side of the fairway away from the power vessel. In a fairway, the short-tacking sailboat doesn't have the automatic right of way to impede passage of other vessels who constrained to navigate within that fairway. It impeded that passage the moment it caused the power vessel to reduce its speed.
If the sailing boat was constrained by her draft to stay in the fairway then it and the powering boat are back even footing as regards 'constrained by draft'. Kind of depends on the width of the fairway and how shallow the sides were and how fast they got shallow. A 22' boat is not going to have that much shallower a draft than a 45' boat, in a few instances it might even have a deeper fin.

In the absence (sp?) of evidence to the contrary the powering boat should assume the sailing boat is similarly constrained by draft and act accordingly. The sailing boat causing the powering boat to slow is not illegitimately impeding its passage.
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Old 25-01-2011, 20:53   #20
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If the sailing boat was constrained by her draft to stay in the fairway then it and the powering boat are back even footing as regards 'constrained by draft'. Kind of depends on the width of the fairway and how shallow the sides were and how fast they got shallow. A 22' boat is not going to have that much shallower a draft than a 45' boat, in a few instances it might even have a deeper fin.
Read the rule again: (d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
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Old 25-01-2011, 20:58   #21
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The term constrained by her draft applies to international waters only. Rule 28.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule28
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Old 25-01-2011, 21:10   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabend View Post
A 45 foot sailboat is under power moving down the right side of a fairly wide fairway.
Plenty of room for power to give way to sail... both are going the same way hence power is overtaking vessel so power alters course to port to pass well astern and anticipate further manouveres...

After the small boat passes and is well to starboard, the larger boat speeds up to cross behind the smaller boat's stern.

Why not increase as soon as sail passes your bow... maybe you would not have had the following problem.......

The smaller boat under sail then tacks back across the channel in the opposite direction directly in front of the vessel under power creating immediate danger in a crossing situation. I would appreciate thoughts on who is at fault.

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Old 25-01-2011, 21:10   #23
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This is a complex subject ! Keep death off the roads, drive on the pavement. Do we walk off the pavement or sidewalk into the path of an oncoming car ? Is this how we navigate ?

Is this a road, fairway or channel ? Does rule 9 apply, or is this the case of power gives way to sail (rule 18) ?

What makes us think it is a fairway ? What does fairly wide mean ? Did the fairway have markers (red to stb and green to port when heading with the direction of bouys) under IALA system B in the USA ? If so then it is definately a narrow channel / fairway and thus Rule 9 applies. But some waterways that seaman consider narrow channels do not have markers. Are these subject to Rule 9. Some have been found to be, some have not.

Could the large vessel only navigate safely down the fairway ? If so should she let others know that this is the case, by showing some lights or a shape. Not unless the large vessel was restricted in her ability to manouevre and nobody mentioned anything that defines a RAM vessel in Rule 3g.

Or was she constrained by her draught. That is the normal reason why a vessel can only safely navigate in a fairway unless of course if the obstructions out of the faiway such as moored boats, swimmers, fishermen, a kids dinghy training session etc etc made it difficult to drive on the pavement (sidewalk) safely. If she had draught restrictions, should she (or could she even) put up 3 red lights. Well, most unlikely she could, and that is why rule 28 says that she "may".

So, straight to rule 2. All seaman must navigate with the precaution (or prudence) appropriate to the ordinary practice of seamen. And that caution in this case, means that the small sailing vessel must assume that the 45 metre vessel is in the fairway (on the road) for a reason, and that she navigate in accordance 9b.

And therefore, the small sailing vessel should have not impeded the larger vessel by either slowing down, tacking and waiting, or nipping under the stern of the larger vessel.

The larger vessel slowed down. Should she have done that ? Strictly speaking, did not have to until it was impossible for the dinghy to get out of her way by her action alone, which in the case of a small dinghy could be extremely late. But all seaman have a duty to avoid collisions. So of course she the larger vessel should have slowed down. Rule 2.

So having got away with it once, the small sailing vessel comes back for another go. Clearly has suicadal tendencies !

And if it all got nasty, the small sailing vessel PROBABLY would have been found predominately to blame for any loss due to collision

Sorry for my verbosity
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Old 25-01-2011, 21:23   #24
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I assure you if it was a 45metre Power vessel I'da got out the way with an early tack... but 45ft manouveres much quicker...
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Old 25-01-2011, 21:24   #25
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Quote:
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The term constrained by her draft applies to international waters only. Rule 28.
Good point, David M. We amateurs are often sloppy about the differences for inland waters. I might have been the one who introduced that term, which is from Rule 9 of the International Rules, rather than the Inland Rules.

Regardless, there are two sections from Rule 9 of the Inland Water Rules, which deals with "Narrow Channels," that can apply to the situation posed at the outset of this thread:

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within that channel or fairway. The latter vessel shall use the danger signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
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Old 25-01-2011, 21:25   #26
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Don't know where you are, but in the US a sailboat under power is a powerboat and must give way to a vessel strictly under sail.

That said, it is always best to give any other boat a wide berth. Avoiding problems is always better than trying to figure out who is to blame afterwards.

WRONG. Cal40 John has it. The sailboat unneccesarily impeded the passage of the power boat as well as forced to power boat to make not one but two emergency reverse power stops to avoid a collision. The first time when it crossed the bow of the power boat the first time. It had already broken the first COLREG not to change course to increase risk of collision. The second not to imped in a fairway. The third a vessel being overtaken has the obligation not to change either heading or speed, that sailbaot did both. A sailboat traveling at 4-6knots upwind should remember that a power boat going 30+ knots and weighing 20 tons cannot stop on a dime, as it has no brakes. A bicycle has the right of way over cars in the US also, does that mean you can zigzag in front of a truck on the freeway??? A prudent mariner not only accounts for surrounding vessels course, but also speed size and stopping distance.

I might be a bit biased, as I was the power boat driver in that exact situation. But In both situations the sailboat had the option of waiting just a few more seconds until the power boat was clear, and both vessels would never have crossed paths. As it was the captain of the sailboat chose to intentionally force a near collision based on a very dubious interpretation of the rules that put both vessels in danger...Unnecessesarily.
In my case just as the sailboat which was headed away from me on a wide fairway it suddenly changed course and cut across directly in front of my bow, while chanting on the radio, "sailboats have the right of way, sailboats have the right of way"...then the wind died, leaving the sailboat stopped dead in front of me. I had no time to cut throttle only a second to pull both shift levers in reverse, risking engine, transmission, and drive shafts, to do a full reverse power stop. I missed hitting him by less than a foot, my bow pulpit scraped his shrouds. A slightly heavier boat, ... a few more miles an hour, ... full gas tanks, ...water tanks, 1 more second of reaction time... and there would have been two more boats of the bottom of that bay.

Be safe folks.
If you bicycle don't swerve in front of traffic, if you are walking on a sidewalk don't jump in front of a bus, and if you sail a sailboat don't tack in front of a power boat going 5-10 times your speed.

There is enough water out there for everybody, simple courtesy and common sense will make everyone safer.
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Old 25-01-2011, 21:28   #27
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Quote:
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Good point, David M. We amateurs are often sloppy about the differences for inland waters. I might have been the one who introduced that term, which is from Rule 9 of the International Rules, rather than the Inland Rules.

Regardless, there are two sections from Rule 9 of the Inland Water Rules, which deals with "Narrow Channels," that can apply to the situation posed at the outset of this thread:

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within that channel or fairway. The latter vessel shall use the danger signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
They both have 5ft draught and are headed out to sea... or maybe into port... both could run aground if they leave the channel.... and keep in mind... they're both small boats...
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Old 25-01-2011, 21:38   #28
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The power boat... the skipper as you stated was near the edge of the channel so he should have anticipated the fact that the sailboat would be obliged to tack before running out of water...
I'd have stayed slow and gradually increased power once the sail was passing my bow on the return tack...
This as well. You don't state explicitly whether the "fairway" was a channel with restricted navigation rules...I inferred this...but it only affects the nuance of my answer, which is the same as Boatman's.

The 45 footer (size doesn't matter here) is, by the rules, a vessel under power, which gives way to a vessel under sail, which in a restricted channel, can be expected to pull any number of seemingly erratic moves that needn't be justified to the "power boat", which, in terms of seamanlike prudence, should keep well clear. After the second tack in front of the bow, the powered sailboat could easily just hit the throttle and pull ahead if it's a bother (assuming it's not a "no wake zone").
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Old 25-01-2011, 21:41   #29
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They both ... are headed out to sea... or maybe into port...
I assumed they were approaching from opposite directions. The powered boat running with the wind. The sail tacking into the wind. I think that is the only way for the starboard tack boat to cross over to the starboard side of the powered boat. Am I holding my after-race-bar-talk hands wrong?
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Old 25-01-2011, 21:44   #30
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I assumed they were approaching from opposite directions. The powered boat running with the wind. The sail tacking into the wind. I think that is the only way for the starboard tack boat to cross over to the starboard side of the powered boat. Am I holding my after-race-bar-talk hands wrong?
my palm-racer hands were in the same position. Boatman61, alternately, saw the powered vessel having its wind on the nose. I don't see how that is possible, given the initial scenario, if it was on the right side of the channel.
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