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Old 29-01-2011, 18:39   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappySeagull View Post
"A sailboat under sail is the give-way vessel with regard to a vessel proceeding in a channel which cannot safely navigate outside a channel, and certain other cases we have discussed."
Huh?
Assume channel was "Fairly Wide" as OP said in the very first post.That's enough.Room to sail says it all.If he'd had other excuses,I'm sure he would have dragged them in by now..Constraint of draft don't apply in boats certainly not between any two sail-BOATS with one motoring.The intent of your quote is to keep sailboats clear of SHIPS in a general way but the captain of an excessively deep boat must be extra careful- that's all.We can't all stop and compare drafts.
Well, the Colregs don't apply only to ships, nor does Rule 9.

If the smaller boat was tacking back and forth in and out of the channel --a common situation in places like Poole Harbor -- not itself restricted to operating in the channel, it has to stay out of the way of a larger vessel operating inside that channel which cannot navigate safely outside of the channel. That's all the rule says.

IF both boats were constrained by the channel (thanks MarkPierce for correcting my brain-f*rt), the rule doesn't apply.

If the channel is not "narrow", the rule doesn't apply. What is "narrow" exactly is not defined by the rules, but will be obvious to most people. If any boat or ship can maneuver quite freely, then it's not narrow. If making a large course change to avoid another boat puts you aground, then it's narrow.

A large cruising sailboat -- 40 odd feet in the OP's case -- can have quite a lot of draft, more than a motorboat of similar size (my boat draws almost 8 feet, as much as some smaller ships). The skipper of a 20 foot daysailer will know without much doubt when a 40-odd foot boat is following a channel and can't maneuver out of the channel. The rule applies to such situations.
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Old 29-01-2011, 18:40   #152
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If nothing else, I hope this discussion has done something to critique the myth that sailboats are endowed with a magical right of way that allows us to make a nuisance of ourselves whenever and wherever we want. If one of us decides to sail in a fairway, make certain that you do so in such a way that doesn't impede the progress of a vessel that can only navigate safely within that space. If this means you have to throw in an extra set of short tacks, or bear away to cross behind someone's stern, or even luff up for a few moments, then that's just the challenge of sailing in a fairway. If you're not up to the challenge, then either stay out of the fairway or motor through it.
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Old 29-01-2011, 18:50   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Wherever the Rules say that you are supposed to stay out of the way of another vessel, or that you are supposed to not impede another vessel, you are the give-way vessel.


Perhaps Mssrs Cockcroft and Lameijer can explain it to you:
Quote:
Not to impede

Rule
8(f) was first adopted by IMO in 1987 to cover the Guidance for the uniform application of the words ‘not to impede’ which appear in Rules 9(b), (c) and (d), lO(i) and (i) and 18(d).
The following item of Guidance was approved in 1982 by the Maritime Safety Committee; ‘When a vessel is required not to impede the passage of another vessel, such a vessel shall so far as practicable navigate in such a way as to avoid the development of risk of collision. If, however, a situation has developed so as to involve risk of collision, the relevant Steering and Sailing Rules shall be complied with.’
The above Guidance is now superseded by the new Rule 8(f) which establishes clearIy that the requirements of ‘not to impede’ are complementary to other requirements of the Steering and Sailing Rules.
The requirement not to impede the passage

or safe passage of another vessel does not apply only to vessels in sight of each other which are approaching in such a way that risk of collision is likely to develop. The requirements of Rule 8(f) together with Rules 9(b), (c) and (d), and lO(i) and (i) apply in both clear and restricted visibility. For instance, a sailing vessel or small power-driven vessel which becomes aware of the approach of a large power-driven vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel should take early action to allow safe passage whether or not the other vessel is in sight. When vessels are in sight of each other and
are approaching in such a way that risk of collision seems likely to develop the Rules of Part B Section I1 become applicable. In such circumstances a vessel which is required not to impede the passage of another vessel is not relieved of that obligation if the other vessel will become the give-way vessel when risk of collision exists. For instance, when a power-driven vessel and a sailing vessel are approaching each other the power-driven vessel is required by Rule 18(a) to keep out of the way when risk of collision begins to apply, although she may be proceeding along a narrow channel or traffic lane, but this does not relieve the sailing vessel of the obligation to take early action to allow sufficient sea room.
If one of two power-driven vessels, crossing
so as to involve risk of collision, is required not to impede the passage of the other vessel, she must, in compliance with Rule 8(f), take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel although the other vessel may be required by Rule 15 to keep out of the way (see page 101).

It will not always be possible, in the circumstances of the case, for the vessel required not to impede to take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel. For instance, the day signal of a vessel constrained by her draught may not be recognised at sufficient distance for early action to be taken and restricted visibility may make it difficult to take early action in accordance with the relevant paragraphs of Rules 9 and 10.


Rule 8(f)(ii) establishes clearly that a vessel required not to impede does not lose that obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision. Although the other vessel may become the give-way vessel when risk of collision develops the vessel required not to impede is not relieved from the requirement to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel because of the application of Rule 17(a)(i). Early action in compliance with Rule 8(f) is compatible with Rule 17(a)(ii), which permits action by the stand-on vessel (see pages 106-8).

A vessel taking action so as to avoid impeding the passage of another vessel must have full regard to the action which may be required by the Steering and Sailing Rules.

This is a requirement of Rule 8(f)(ii) to take account of the possibility of both vessels taking conflicting action when there is risk of collision. However, as it is not possible to establish the precise distance apart at which risk of collision begins to apply, a vessel taking early action not to impede should also have full regard to the action which may be taken by the other vessel. Rules 14, 15 and 17(c) indicate the form of action to be taken.

Rule 8(f)(iii) relates to the obligations of a vessel the passage of which is not to be impeded. Such a vessel is not relieved of her obligation to comply with the Steering and Sailing Rules when there is risk of collision. When vessels are in sight of one another and risk of collision exists, a power-driven vessel may be required to keep out of the way of the vessel required not to impede in accordance with Rules 13, 14, 15 and 18(a). In restricted visibility such a vessel is not relieved
of her obligation to take avoiding action in ample time when a close quarters situation is developing. When there is an obligation not to impede in restricted visibility Rule 19 applies fully, together with Rule 8(f).





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Old 29-01-2011, 19:19   #154
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Once again, We're creating facts not in evidence in the original scenario.

Let's set courtesy among fellow boaters aside, for a minute. Since, I would probably have fallen off and passed astern of the powerboat..to keep from playing this game of chicken.

But by the Rules:

These are 2 sailboats..one 45' under power and one 20' under sail. No one is doing 30 knots!

The OP states that the 45' sailboat is proceding up the right side of a fairway and correctly slows to allow the 20' sailboat to pass in front ( moving from port to starboard). ( power boats give way to sailboats)

The 45' sailboat then speeds up. The sailboat tacks and is crossing in front of the 45' sailboat under power... again. Power boats give way to sailboats!

The OP states that the sailboat was WELL to starboard...when it then tacked back to cross from starboard to port in front of the 45' .

That being the case the 45' had plenty of time to see the bearing angles and take corrective action to avoid the sailboat under sail. Power boats give way to sailboats!

Corrective action could have been to slow, stop, reverse or possibly alter course.

All this discussion of CBD and Narrow Channels while interesting and provacative doesn't alter the fact that the Power boat, in this case a sailboat ( you'd think they'd understand ) needs to give way to a sailboat under sail.
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Old 29-01-2011, 19:32   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest245 View Post
All this discussion of CBD and Narrow Channels while interesting and provacative doesn't alter the fact that the Power boat, in this case a sailboat ( you'd think they'd understand ) needs to give way to a sailboat under sail.
You seem to be forgetting the fact that the sailboat tacked under the bows of the powered boat, causing him to throttle back, and then came back to do it a second time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: this was not a smart sailor. He either didn't know or didn't care about the rules, and he either didn't know or didn't care that the other vessel was there.
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Old 29-01-2011, 19:43   #156
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Bash, I didn't forget. Throttling back, stopping and even reversing are all viable methods of giving way to a stand on vessel. There's no provision in the rules that says you give way..only if you don't have to slow down or stop.

That being said, I agree with you, that I would personally be more courteous and not force someone to give way if I had a choice to short tack and let them pass or, pass astern.
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Old 29-01-2011, 19:47   #157
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Time to get the facts.
Post 1 the OP:"A 45 foot sailboat is under power moving down the right side of a fairly wide fairway. The vessel under power slows as a 20 foot sailboat tacks from port to starboard directly across its bow. After the small boat passes and is well to starboard, the larger boat speeds up to cross behind the smaller boat's stern. The smaller boat under sail then tacks back across the channel in the opposite direction directly in front of the vessel under power creating immediate danger in a crossing situation."

POST 18:
"I talked to the sailor of the 20 foot boat. She said:

"We were tacking out the main fairway. It's plenty wide. That guy in the reef crusher is motoring down left of center. We tack onto starboard and knew we could easily cross him and wait on the far left side as he passed. But as usual he's not familiar with tacking a small boat out the fairway and slows down. Now our plan is destroyed. There's no way we want to wait in irons for him to pass. He's practically stopped so we quickly tack back across his bow. It's close but there's no way he can hit us. Then he speeds up. You should have heard him yelling. Someone should tell him to simply maintain course and speed. The small boats will sail around him. We won't hit him, we can tack away in an instant."

So why all this about comparing drafts?dredging up rules that are darned useful when a tanker encounters a SV in a canal?Nobody's constrained that they mention.Start with the first rules.The others are for observance in the breach of these.
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Old 29-01-2011, 19:57   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
You seem to be forgetting the fact that the sailboat tacked under the bows of the powered boat, causing him to throttle back, and then came back to do it a second time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: this was not a smart sailor. He either didn't know or didn't care about the rules, and he either didn't know or didn't care that the other vessel was there.
I get quite the opposite.MV picked a funny place to slow down.Should have not been in so close in the first crossing.It's as though MV was trying to "encumber" if you like.And the second would therefore never have happened either.
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Old 29-01-2011, 20:09   #159
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Well, if that is indeed a direct quote from the small sailboat; they are clearly not respectful of other boaters or prudent, and may well find themselves getting run over one day.
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Old 29-01-2011, 20:18   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post


Perhaps Mssrs Cockcroft and Lameijer can explain it to you:



[/LEFT]
None of this contradicts the idea, which I would have thought rather obvious, that an obligation to "not impede" means that it is you who have to maneuver to avoid a close-quarters situation, not the other vessel -- that is, you are supposed to give way.

Interesting enough, the material quoted uses our exact situation as as example -- it says that a sailboat encountering a powered vessel navigating in a channel is not relieved of its obligation to not impede that vessel, just because it would otherwise become the stand-on vessel under the rules because it is under sail. In other words -- and this is all it can mean -- the sailboat must maneuver and must not stand-on.

But I give up trying to convince you -- I will give it to the RYA lawyers and see what they say. I'll post the results.
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Old 29-01-2011, 20:26   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappySeagull View Post
Time to get the facts.
Post 1 the OP:"A 45 foot sailboat is under power moving down the right side of a fairly wide fairway. The vessel under power slows as a 20 foot sailboat tacks from port to starboard directly across its bow. After the small boat passes and is well to starboard, the larger boat speeds up to cross behind the smaller boat's stern. The smaller boat under sail then tacks back across the channel in the opposite direction directly in front of the vessel under power creating immediate danger in a crossing situation."

POST 18:"I talked to the sailor of the 20 foot boat. She said:

"We were tacking out the main fairway. It's plenty wide. That guy in the reef crusher is motoring down left of center. We tack onto starboard and knew we could easily cross him and wait on the far left side as he passed. But as usual he's not familiar with tacking a small boat out the fairway and slows down. Now our plan is destroyed. There's no way we want to wait in irons for him to pass. He's practically stopped so we quickly tack back across his bow. It's close but there's no way he can hit us. Then he speeds up. You should have heard him yelling. Someone should tell him to simply maintain course and speed. The small boats will sail around him. We won't hit him, we can tack away in an instant."

So why all this about comparing drafts?dredging up rules that are darned useful when a tanker encounters a SV in a canal?Nobody's constrained that they mention.Start with the first rules.The others are for observance in the breach of these.
But the small boat skipper is complying with the rules. He is frustrated that the larger boat is not standing-on, but rather, is changing course and speed and ruining his maneuver, which was calculated to avoid any collision. This really illustrates why it is important to know when you are supposed to stand-on, and when you are the one responsible for maneuvering. It's not just some obscure rule.

We are assuming, yes, that the larger boat could not operate outside of the channel. But the small boat skipper seems to have assumed this as well, otherwise he would have maintained course and speed and would have expected the larger vessel to maneuver around him.
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Old 29-01-2011, 20:41   #162
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Dockhead, There's no indication that the 45' er altered course, only that he slowed to allow the 20'er to pass in front. ( a proper maneuver for a give way vessel )

The stand on vessel's responsibility is to maintain course and speed in this case the stand on vessel..... is the small sailboat.

The Give way vessel can slow, stop, alter course or reverse. The give way vessel is not required to maintain speed. They can slow, stop, reverse or alter course to avoid collision. The Give way vessel is the large sailboat.

If the small sailboat was the give way vessel they should have passed astern...or tacked away.
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Old 29-01-2011, 20:45   #163
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Old 29-01-2011, 20:47   #164
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Here in Florida, the only thing it takes to buy a powerboat is a check. Therefore, rules of navigation apply... yet common sense keeps one afloat. This is my application on power and sail. I realize most boaters in the Sunshine State waters have never set foot in a classroom or opened a book!
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Old 30-01-2011, 04:28   #165
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Found a site that does a clinic on this - take a look, the 'Basic Rules of Right of Way Clinic' is FREE!!! (today at least).

Learn to sail online with sailing classes and lessons
I tried this clinic, since I had time to kill when you were all in bed, and found it a very well presented refresher. I'd highly recommend it for anyone who is fairly new to sailing, and as a refresher for those of us who have forgotten.

There is no doubt in my mind now, that the larger boat (under power) was restricted in its ability to maneuver, and therefore the stand on boat; and therefore he should have stood his ground until a crash was imminent. If the small sailing boat is to be believed, the problem arose because he slowed down. The sailing boat had already safely crossed the bow, and his reduction in speed hindered the sailing boat's plan to tack back behind his stern.

I declare a guilty verdict against the skipper of the large boat. As stand on boat, he should have held course.

I also declare a stern warning against the sailing boat, to ensure that it doesn't place itself in a situation where other skippers feel there is a threat of imminent collision.
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