Rules of the road on the Chesepeake Bay

[mogulskibum]

Originally Posted by ohdrinkboy

Law or not....give the professional fisherman a break at change course to stay clear. He's trying to earn a living.

About half those "professionals" come roaring back into their home ports throwing up huge wakes in no wake zones. Those ******** can figure out how to avoid me if I'm under sail.

The problem is that the other half of those professionals don't throw wakes and are very courteous on (and off) the water; those guys I'll very willingly tack or alter course so they can quickly and efficiently earn a living.

Now, if only there were few enough of them and /or they flew special signal flags so that I could reliably tell the difference.

[daviddiscenza]

Thanks for all the insightful replies. Let me give the backstory to the question. My wife and I were out on the Bay last weekend (9/2/17) when we had an "encounter" with a waterman crew. I maneuvered to steer clear of him and he kept maneuvering in my way. This brought us too close for my comfort and close to one of his buoys. I did my best to avoid the buoy and missed it by about 2 feet, but that didn't stop one of the crew from yelling at us. It concerns me that more than a few of you who responded mentioned them being armed.

As I said, I did everything I could short of tacking to avoid the boat. I have no idea which traps are his and where he's going. My course should have been plainly obvious to him. If he's considered encumbered by MD DNR, then I'll tack out of the way and come back to my course when I'm far enough away. If he's not, then I'll do what I can to maneuver out of the way and tack if I absolutely must. I don't want someone shooting at me. I do expect them to obey the rules of the road and I'm not beyond reporting them to the Coast guard if I think it's warranted.

My wife thinks what happened was an example of "class warfare". Here I am, some "rich guy" on his yacht getting in the way of these poor working guys who are making pennies on the pound for their effort. Maybe so, but the rules are there to protect us all and no one's exempt from them.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not the voice of an internet lawyer but actually quoted from ColRegs .... look it up. You do have a copy onboard as you are required right ?

Well yes I do, smart ass!

The question here, if you have been paying attention, is not the rules, but the interpretation of the rules. You have your interpretation of course and that's fine, but that is just your opinion, not cold hard fact.

My suggestion was to contact the MD DNR for clarification and I stand by that. They, not some guy on the Internet will be the ones to respond if there is an incident. They will be the ones to write a citation if appropriate.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by daviddiscenza

Thanks for all the insightful replies. Let me give the backstory to the question. My wife and I were out on the Bay last weekend (9/2/17) when we had an "encounter" with a waterman crew. I maneuvered to steer clear of him and he kept maneuvering in my way. This brought us too close for my comfort and close to one of his buoys. I did my best to avoid the buoy and missed it by about 2 feet, but that didn't stop one of the crew from yelling at us. It concerns me that more than a few of you who responded mentioned them being armed.

As I said, I did everything I could short of tacking to avoid the boat. I have no idea which traps are his and where he's going. My course should have been plainly obvious to him. If he's considered encumbered by MD DNR, then I'll tack out of the way and come back to my course when I'm far enough away. If he's not, then I'll do what I can to maneuver out of the way and tack if I absolutely must. I don't want someone shooting at me. I do expect them to obey the rules of the road and I'm not beyond reporting them to the Coast guard if I think it's warranted.

My wife thinks what happened was an example of "class warfare". Here I am, some "rich guy" on his yacht getting in the way of these poor working guys who are making pennies on the pound for their effort. Maybe so, but the rules are there to protect us all and no one's exempt from them.

I understand and I believe your wife is at least partly right. There are a couple really interesting books about the Maryland watermen. One is "Beautiful Swimmers" and I don't remember the name of the other. Read these books and you will understand where they are coming from. You'll also understand why there's a good chance they are armed.

So they are working and you are playing. It's easy to see why they might resent you (or anyone else) getting in their way. For the most part, they are concentration on doing their job and not highly concerned with things like maritime law or COLREGS.

Again, I suggest checking with the MD DNR, but to make your boating more enjoyable, I suggest staying as far from working crabbers as possible. The Bay is plenty big for all of us. It's only leaving and entering port that you may have to deal with them up close.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

hhh . . . actually the answer is pretty clear . . . no

"engaged in fishing" only grants privilege if the fishing gear (significantly) restricts the vessel's maneuverability . . . and hauling/dropping pots in fact does not, you can see them often doing this at pretty significant speed when they choose to. You can sometimes be accidentally dragging a pot and not know it.

This has actually been tested in court in Maine - and no, sorry I can't cite the case, it was back in the '70's.

(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

That's the correct answer.


And it means that they are obligated to keep a good watch and follow the normal order of maneuvering. It means that unless they are "engaged in fishing" under the narrow definition in the Rules, they are obligated to give way to PDVs coming from starboard, and to vessels under sail, etc.

However, it is a big mistake, and unfortunately a common mistake, to think that you can be the BENEFICIARY of any obligation on their part to give way. You are not -- you don't have any right of way in any case, or any rights at all.

In my experience, almost zero fishing vessels, when they are busy with fishing, will ever engage in any collision avoidance maneuvers. Don't get upset about it -- just maneuver around them and give them a friendly wave. You are not obligated to stand on as soon as you have a reasonable idea that they don't intend to maneuver.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

. . . For the most part, they are concentration on doing their job and not highly concerned with things like maritime law or COLREGS.

Again, I suggest checking with the MD DNR, but to make your boating more enjoyable, I suggest staying as far from working crabbers as possible. The Bay is plenty big for all of us. It's only leaving and entering port that you may have to deal with them up close.

Forget the DNR -- the Rule is clear. But aside from that, this is good advice, and what Ron suggests is exactly what I do.

Also, I don't particularly differentiate between professional fishermen and amateurs -- in my experience, they behave about the same way. Give 'em plenty of room, and a cheery wave.

[rwidman]

Remember, legal advice from a web forum is worth exactly what you pay for it.

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

hhh . . . actually the answer is pretty clear . . . no

"engaged in fishing" only grants privilege if the fishing gear (significantly) restricts the vessel's maneuverability . . . and hauling/dropping pots in fact does not, you can see them often doing this at pretty significant speed when they choose to. You can sometimes be accidentally dragging a pot and not know it.

This has actually been tested in court in Maine - and no, sorry I can't cite the case, it was back in the '70's.

(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

You know, thanks for that. In the bay, I usually want to give lots of space to all the guys fishing even though they have complete mobility. I am talking about the guy in the 15 to 25' runabout with 1 or 3 lines out just staying in place, or slowly trolling. Not at anchor. I guess by the above, they are not restricted in maneuverability.

I had this situation a few weeks ago, I was beating down the channel, trying to point as high as I could, getting as close to each shore as possible to reduce total number of tacks as I was singlehanded. From across the channel I saw a guy, but couldn't see any lines, and didn't know if I wanted to go to his fore or aft. I chose aft as this would be safest for me in case leeway caused me to drift. Of course as I got real close, I saw that he had his lines hanging over the aft side, and he shook his fist at me. I didn't get close enough to mess anything up, but it sure would have been nice to know before I got that close... Of course, him being a 1/3 of the way in the channel wasn't any help.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daviddiscenza

Thanks for all the insightful replies. Let me give the backstory to the question. My wife and I were out on the Bay last weekend (9/2/17) when we had an "encounter" with a waterman crew. I maneuvered to steer clear of him and he kept maneuvering in my way. This brought us too close for my comfort and close to one of his buoys. I did my best to avoid the buoy and missed it by about 2 feet, but that didn't stop one of the crew from yelling at us. It concerns me that more than a few of you who responded mentioned them being armed.

As I said, I did everything I could short of tacking to avoid the boat. I have no idea which traps are his and where he's going. My course should have been plainly obvious to him. If he's considered encumbered by MD DNR, then I'll tack out of the way and come back to my course when I'm far enough away. If he's not, then I'll do what I can to maneuver out of the way and tack if I absolutely must. I don't want someone shooting at me. I do expect them to obey the rules of the road and I'm not beyond reporting them to the Coast guard if I think it's warranted.

My wife thinks what happened was an example of "class warfare". Here I am, some "rich guy" on his yacht getting in the way of these poor working guys who are making pennies on the pound for their effort. Maybe so, but the rules are there to protect us all and no one's exempt from them.

I don't quite understand the difference between these two positions:

"If he's considered encumbered by MD DNR, then I'll tack out of the way and come back to my course when I'm far enough away. If he's not, then I'll do what I can to maneuver out of the way and tack if I absolutely must."

Let's drill into this.

If you are give-way under the Rules, then I guess it's pretty clear to everyone what you should do.

If you are stand-on under the Rules (he's not "engaged in fishing" in the narrow sense of the Rules, and you're under sail or under power coming from his starboard), then you shouldn't carry on standing-on after you have a reasonable idea that he doesn't intend to maneuver. At that point, you should take over and maneuver yourself. If it's obvious that they are not going to maneuver -- like no one in the wheel house, or no one even looking at you -- all their eyes on their gear -- then don't stand on at all -- it's pointless and you are not required.

Best of all, when dealing with fisherman busy at their trade, is to stay well clear, maneuvering before a risk of collision arises in the first place. When it's possible -- of course it's not always possible. But this is a great solution which doesn't require any analysis as to who is stand on and who is give way.


As to their shouting etc. -- it's rude and unseamanlike of them, but what it means is that they want you to give them space. I can understand this desire, myself, even if I don't condone the way they are expressing it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mogulskibum

. . . .Those ******** can figure out how to avoid me if I'm under sail.. . .

You have no right to expect that. Both vessels are always equally responsible for avoiding a collision. If they don't maneuver or you can tell that they don't intend to maneuver, then you must maneuver yourself. It doesn't matter WHY they don't maneuver. It's not even any of your business.

If you are stand-on under the Rules, your ONLY question is -- does he intend to maneuver, or not? If he does intend to maneuver, then you have one obligation -- hold your course and speed so his maneuver will work. If he does not intend to maneuver, then you have a different obligation -- to take the crossing into your own hands and deal with it yourself. That's all. WHY he doesn't maneuver has nothing to do with it.

[TheOffice]

Dockhead has correctly stated the rule and the practicalities.

I have to go through a crab pot field every time I leave South River, so I understand where DD is coming from. The crabbers jump from pot to pot like bees to flowers. There is no discernable pattern and they are not watching for other vessels.

No reason to assert your rights and damage your boat.

[dpddj]

In Maine and on the Chesapeake and Delaware, I just try to stay out of their way. Easy enough to do.
Having said that, once when anchored on the New Jersey side of the Delaware (I know, I know, why the heck would anyone do that?) I did have several waterman leaving port early in the AM intentionally come very close and wake me, afterwards they headed off on the directions they really intended to go. A**holes.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by mogulskibum

About half those "professionals" come roaring back into their home ports throwing up huge wakes in no wake zones. Those ******** can figure out how to avoid me if I'm under sail.......... .

You should keep in mind that most of those "********" don't give a rats ass about you or your silly sailboat. They are working and you are in their way.

The Chesapeake Bay is big enough to where you can get from where you are to where you're going without getting in their way and without coming close to them except when leaving and entering port. Certainly you can manage that without a confrontation.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You have no right to expect that. Both vessels are always equally responsible for avoiding a collision. If they don't maneuver or you can tell that they don't intend to maneuver, then you must maneuver yourself. It doesn't matter WHY they don't maneuver. It's not even any of your business.

If you are stand-on under the Rules, your ONLY question is -- does he intend to maneuver, or not? If he does intend to maneuver, then you have one obligation -- hold your course and speed so his maneuver will work. If he does not intend to maneuver, then you have a different obligation -- to take the crossing into your own hands and deal with it yourself. That's all. WHY he doesn't maneuver has nothing to do with it.

Excellent series of posts! And a great example to use to illustrate why the Rules have nothing to do with the concept of "right of way" that we all learned on the road. In a nutshell, it doesn't matter in this instance that watermen may not be give way vessels when tending to their traps, the reality is that (for anyone who has sailed the Chesapeake for awhile) that (right or wrong) they very predictably are not going to give way, so therefore you must do so as required by the Rules!

The opinion of someone interpreting what "engaged in fishing" means -- or the opinion of someone on the phone at MD DNR for that matter -- obviously has no bearing on the matter when you are actually engaged in the maneuver. In this scenario it's all about predictability & nothing to do with "legal rights."

[four winds]

Sailing back in to Charlotte Harbor, crossing several lines of traps along the way. Approached a line about a dozen pots ahead of the crabber checking pots. He would have been at least eight pots away when I crossed, except when he saw me, he sped up and skipped all pots to stop at the one closest to my course.

I tacked away. Tacked back clear of that string.

Oh well.