Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-09-2018, 14:29   #781
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,008
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The Rule requires continuous vigilance.
Now we're getting somewhere.

So now I can row ashore and walk the beach on this coral island, so long as I glance back at the bay (or have a nearby yacht keep an eye on it) - so far so good, practicality meets legality.

And if I close my eyes in this sheltered anchorage but maintain "continuous vigilance" using radar alerts, anchor alerts, engine alerts, sonar alerts, intruder alerts and even my innate feeling for the boat that alerts me instantly to a change of wind or tide or movement, so I will jump awake whenever anything stirs, or anyone steps aboard, then I am maintaining "continuous vigilance" - excellent!

Continuous vigilance I can live with - 360 degree continuous visual: nobody can.

(Not allowed to leave the bridge could be a small problem, as I don't have a bridge. Maybe I'll sleep in the cockpit.)
__________________

NevisDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2018, 14:30   #782
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,775
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Legality in this sense has nothing to do with realism, if being practical just don't worry about these technicalities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
So the question now revolves around the inadequacy of a 20 minute 360 degree scan
Well if we're talking many days passage, no way would my sanity survive 18-minute catnaps.

4-6 hours continuous, and really 8 after a week.

So, depends on the individual, but IMO soon as you're past a few days for most, the required sleep will create the illegality.
__________________

john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2018, 14:38   #783
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,008
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

I agree with John but would remind him of the example of Blondie Hasler's outstanding abilities. (If one man can climb a mountain then it ain't impossible to climb, so please don't try to stop him.)
NevisDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2018, 17:35   #784
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 7,907
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It has been interpreted to mean that you can't leave the bridge even for a second (and STCW says that explicitly).
You keep on talking about fully manned ships and "leaving the bridge". Let's keep the discussion to cruising boats where the whole concept of a "bridge" is moot.
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2018, 19:23   #785
Registered User
 
BigBoater917's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Boat: 68 Southern Shipbuliding 89'
Posts: 132
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
You keep on talking about fully manned ships and "leaving the bridge". Let's keep the discussion to cruising boats where the whole concept of a "bridge" is moot.
I understand where you're coming from, but the Colregs make no distiction about the Watchkeeper responsibilities just because they're in a cockpit rather than a bridge.
__________________
20 years and too many miles to count under the stern.
BigBoater917 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2018, 21:05   #786
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,008
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoater917 View Post
... the Colregs make no distiction about the Watchkeeper responsibilities just because they're in a cockpit rather than a bridge.
Note that the bridge on a ship often includes a chart table, radio/comms area, engine instrumentation, a toilet, coffee machine, as well as steering - not at all dissimilar to the layout of cockpit, chart area, toilet, comms, radar screen and galley in a small yacht.

As for no distinction about responsibilities between ships or small craft, you've not been paying attention:

- "On all but the smallest vessels a [extra] seaman should normally be posted
on look-out duty from dusk to dawn
....."

- "The Courts are likely to take into account the number of seamen
available
....."
NevisDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2018, 21:47   #787
Registered User
 
Viking Sailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: Fantasia 35
Posts: 1,162
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoater917 View Post
I understand where you're coming from, but the Colregs make no distiction about the Watchkeeper responsibilities just because they're in a cockpit rather than a bridge.

Indirectly they do!


The COLREG's were created and refined to keep big ships from sinking unnecessarily. It is a tragedy when one or two sailors in a small boat die. But, it is a disaster when hundreds of passengers die, tons of expensive cargo go to the bottom, or huge amounts oil pollute the seas.


It is pure hubris to think that any benefit we small boat sailors derive from the COLREG's is anything more then an incidental benefit.


The lookout on a big ship must be an able seaman who is qualified, experienced, tested, and approved. The lookout must be supervised by an officer of the watch who also must be qualified, experienced, tested, and approved. Both of these ships crew are also required to comply with the off watch rest requirements for merchant ship crews.



This is not doable with a small boat crew. So, by extension, there must be another way for a small boat crew to cruise legally and hopefully safely.
Viking Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2018, 23:05   #788
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,775
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
I agree with John but would remind him of the example of Blondie Hasler's outstanding abilities. (If one man can climb a mountain then it ain't impossible to climb, so please don't try to stop him.)
Yes, my statement is that

No, long passage-making single handed is not the issue, not **in itself** illegal.

But the de-facto kicker is

**Until you need to sleep**.

Not tiny minutes-long catnaps, maybe, but really get a decent sleep.

For me that means a few days, way less than a week.

Maybe some superhumans can go for longer periods without raising demons, but not me and IMO not many.

This sequence of syllogisms means **long** solo passages become illegal 99.99% of the time.

IMO
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2018, 23:18   #789
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,008
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
...This sequence of syllogisms means **long** solo passages become illegal 99.99% of the time. IMO
And yet each example quoted of failure by a singlehander to keep proper lookout has been a case of gross and irresponsible negligence. You'd think if .001% of us could keep proper lookout, there would be lots of examples of prosecutions that illustrate this crushing majority of us to be incapable.
NevisDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2018, 00:56   #790
Registered User
 
Sojourner's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Florence, Italy
Boat: SY Wake: 53' Amel Super Maramu
Posts: 307
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
(It sure helps to be young and fit though.)
Don't know about that.... I've known many 'young' people who die without 10 hours of sleep at a time, and even more 'old' people who function on 4 a night and do more during the day than the young ones by x10.
__________________
3 cats, 3 queers, endless wake, endless love!
https://www.facebook.com/anendlesswake/
https://anendlesswake.com/
Sojourner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2018, 01:09   #791
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,775
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
And yet each example quoted of failure by a singlehander to keep proper lookout has been a case of gross and irresponsible negligence.
The elephant in this "technical legality" room is the practical fact that out in the ocean away from shipping lanes, 99.9999% of the time being illegally irresponsibly negligent causes no accidents.

Thus the practice of solo passage making is de facto legal, hardly ever "prosecuted" except in the .0001 times there is.

But such de facto practical considerations are OT for this de jure thread.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2018, 07:49   #792
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 22,752
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
And yet each example quoted of failure by a singlehander to keep proper lookout has been a case of gross and irresponsible negligence. You'd think if .001% of us could keep proper lookout, there would be lots of examples of prosecutions that illustrate this crushing majority of us to be incapable.




That's quite some coincidence, isn't it?


Actually it's not a coincidence at all -- sleeping when you should be looking out is going to be seen as "gross and irresponsible negligence", if something happens. To be sleeping instead of driving the boat is a gross violation of the obligation to look out and be alert.


Don't forget the legal article posted further up the thread about the possible consequences of gross negligence vs ordinary negligence. There can be far-ranging legal consequences, including possible criminal liability, and insurance implications.







Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
The elephant in this "technical legality" room is the practical fact that out in the ocean away from shipping lanes, 99.9999% of the time being illegally irresponsibly negligent causes no accidents.

Thus the practice of solo passage making is de facto legal, hardly ever "prosecuted" except in the .0001 times there is.

But such de facto practical considerations are OT for this de jure thread.



I think it's appropriate to stay aware of the practical context of all of this, and not OT at all.


The numbers are actually somewhat important -- I seriously doubt if it's 99.9999% of long distance single handers who get away with it without an accident. Only about 99.99% of all Americans (two orders of magnitude less) get away every year without getting killed in a car accident. I would love to see a statistical analysis of long distance single handing. And of long distance sailing altogether.


I bet we will find that recreational sailors are involved in orders of magnitude more collisions in blue water, than commercial vessels, or at least one order of magnitude. And I bet that single handers have a far higher accident rate than fully crewed boats. It would be relevant and interesting to know.


In any case, whether it's 99% or 99.9% or 99.99% or whatever percentage of multi-day passages it is which go off without a collision, grounding, or other hitch, when you do get away with it, it is not indeed "de facto legal". It is just you are de facto getting away with it. That's different. As we've discussed.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2018, 07:57   #793
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 22,752
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Note that the bridge on a ship often includes a chart table, radio/comms area, engine instrumentation, a toilet, coffee machine, as well as steering - not at all dissimilar to the layout of cockpit, chart area, toilet, comms, radar screen and galley in a small yacht.

As for no distinction about responsibilities between ships or small craft, you've not been paying attention:

- "On all but the smallest vessels a [extra] seaman should normally be posted
on look-out duty from dusk to dawn
....."

- "The Courts are likely to take into account the number of seamen
available
....."

Wishful thinking. The last two paragraphs relate to whether a SEPARATE lookout is essential or not. Certainly not to whether no lookout at all may be kept, a question about which there is absolutely no legal controversy.



Concerning "leaving the bridge" -- the significance of this phrase is that the lookout must be able to look out continuously, and in case he briefly looks at something else, at least with his peripheral vision. Other cases spend a great deal of time talking about looking out the windows.



All of this is to show what continuous means, in case anyone gets captivated by the idea that "at all times" could ever be interpreted to be fulfilled by a horizon scan every 20 minutes -- it cannot.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2018, 09:55   #794
Registered User
 
BigBoater917's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Boat: 68 Southern Shipbuliding 89'
Posts: 132
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Note that the bridge on a ship often includes a chart table, radio/comms area, engine instrumentation, a toilet, coffee machine, as well as steering - not at all dissimilar to the layout of cockpit, chart area, toilet, comms, radar screen and galley in a small yacht.

As for no distinction about responsibilities between ships or small craft, you've not been paying attention:

- "On all but the smallest vessels a [extra] seaman should normally be posted
on look-out duty from dusk to dawn
....."

- "The Courts are likely to take into account the number of seamen
available
....."
I have a bit of deep sea time as both AB and a watchstanfing mate so I do understand the general layout. The Colregs does make some distinction regarding vessel sizes for lights and shapes and whistle signals it does not excuse not posting a lookout. Rule 2 would also cover this as a lookout is a common practice.

As stated earlier in the thread, very little is going to come of it unless there is an incident, like this.

https://youtu.be/mtZJ__8PVDU


Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking Sailor View Post
Indirectly they do!


The COLREG's were created and refined to keep big ships from sinking unnecessarily. It is a tragedy when one or two sailors in a small boat die. But, it is a disaster when hundreds of passengers die, tons of expensive cargo go to the bottom, or huge amounts oil pollute the seas.


It is pure hubris to think that any benefit we small boat sailors derive from the COLREG's is anything more then an incidental benefit.


The lookout on a big ship must be an able seaman who is qualified, experienced, tested, and approved. The lookout must be supervised by an officer of the watch who also must be qualified, experienced, tested, and approved. Both of these ships crew are also required to comply with the off watch rest requirements for merchant ship crews.



This is not doable with a small boat crew. So, by extension, there must be another way for a small boat crew to cruise legally and hopefully safely.
The Colregs are the defacto law on the high seas in terms of collsion avoidance, regardless of who they were written for. Just as the watchstander on a ship ensures that the lookout is able and actively performing their duties it is the duty of any Captain to make sure an adequate look out is posted while underway.
__________________
20 years and too many miles to count under the stern.
BigBoater917 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2018, 13:48   #795
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Moana 33
Posts: 1,008
Re: Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...All of this is to show what continuous means, in case anyone gets captivated by the idea that "at all times" could ever be interpreted to be fulfilled by a horizon scan every 20 minutes -- it cannot.
I think we all understand what "continuous" means, and it does not and cannot equate to "at all times" at all times, as we have amply demonstrated above.

Sure in some situations it can be interpreted that way, no doubt there are cases where it was, but they are not interchangeable and I'd suggest (yet again, no one has yet disproved) the one phrase was carefully and deliberately chosen as a practical wording, while the other is totally impractical, even idiotic, in many situations.

But we do seem captivated by this 20 minute interval.

When driving a car, I try always to remember the 3 second rule about using my mirror. A police car or speeding driver can quite unexpectedly appear in that mirror and if we pull out to avoid a pothole just as that Kawasaki motorbike moves to overtake, they'll be pissed and we'll be sorry.

So it is with sailing - I need a definite routine of checking 360 degrees as I've been snuck up on before and been shocked at how close before I noticed. In harbour, approaching the fuel dock, around busy traffic, mostly I scan astern about every minute (sometimes less) - seems to avoid too many surprises. I find on ships, the bridge windows face forward (surprise!) with often a chartroom and radio shack along the aft bulkhead. Helmsman may often have zero view astern and the lookout must walk to the bridge wing to view 170-180 degrees. How often does he do this? - depends. Mid-ocean with the radar pinging and 25 kts, probably never. Is he keeping proper lookout or "just getting away with it"? - only a court can decide and we shouldn't try to second-guess the courts, not without some decided cases to chew on, and we have none.
__________________

NevisDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
legal, rule, single

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rule Hose (for Rule Pumps) kjames Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 3 09-01-2012 05:51
Setup for Single-Handing a Sloop boredinthecity Monohull Sailboats 35 25-11-2009 08:05
Woman Single-Handing to Mexico ? Jennymar Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 38 26-08-2009 13:19
Advice on (gracefully) single-handing a selden imf? deano Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 3 19-01-2009 18:04
Single Handing Kai Nui General Sailing Forum 79 15-02-2007 13:49



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.