Red Tape and offshore cruising NZ

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by swanman

... I am dual Nationality UK/Australian. I am looking to buy a yacht soonish and sail it for extended periods offshore.
.....
My issue is the NZ cat 1 safety requirements, which are stringent and expensive and require a minimum 36' loa. ...

The first yacht I registered in NZ was 26ft (no issues about length, though plenty about everything else) but I've lost count of the NZ folks who told me they register their yachts offshore (Cook Islands mainly) due to the 'nanny state' bureaucracy and cost of maintaining NZ Cat 1. Cook Islands is also relatively expensive though (I found initial rego was a lot more expensive than NZ) so with dual British citizenship, in your case I'd register in one of the UK dependencies (Channel Islands, IoM, etc) and avoid NZ bureaucracy entirely. I was told you need a UK address or business to register in mainland UK but IoM were very helpful when we discussed registering there. I think they even allow any Commonwealth citizen's yacht on their registry. Anyway that's where we plan to register before heading offshore.

Our biggest difficulty was de-registering from the previous owner's home country - be careful if the yacht you buy is Italian registered - their bureaucracy is legend!

Regarding buying a foreign registered yacht and maintaining that country's registration: that's not an option in most cases as apparently international law prohibits countries from registering, or maintaining registry for 'foreign owned' vessels. I can't explain how all those 'flag of convenience' countries (Cooks, IoM, Guernsey, Jersey, Bermuda, Cayman Is, etc, etc) get around it but they seem to manage no problem.

[Basil]

If you are worried about Cat 1 then you won’t be worried about paying the bill for SAR ,
The Cat 1 was introduced after a number of incidents of yachts getting into trouble due to being poorly equipped etc.
Try going to the maritime web site an seeing for your self the requirements for Cat 1.
Part of the criteria to register a vessel in NZ is New Zealand citizenship so it appears you may not have to even worry.

By the was the Tasman sea is very large an very unforgiving an she loves the sailors who cross unprepared.

[Tikka]

My understanding , the requirement does apply for racing and commercial only.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Tikka

My understanding , the requirement does apply for racing and commercial only.

If you’re referring to NZ Category 1 then no, it also applies to all NZ-registered yachts leaving NZ for an ocean passage.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

The first yacht I registered in NZ was 26ft (no issues about length, though plenty about everything else) but I've lost count of the NZ folks who told me they register their yachts offshore (Cook Islands mainly) due to the 'nanny state' bureaucracy and cost of maintaining NZ Cat 1. Cook Islands is also relatively expensive though (I found initial rego was a lot more expensive than NZ) so with dual British citizenship, in your case I'd register in one of the UK dependencies (Channel Islands, IoM, etc) and avoid NZ bureaucracy entirely. I was told you need a UK address or business to register in mainland UK but IoM were very helpful when we discussed registering there. I think they even allow any Commonwealth citizen's yacht on their registry. Anyway that's where we plan to register before heading offshore.

Our biggest difficulty was de-registering from the previous owner's home country - be careful if the yacht you buy is Italian registered - their bureaucracy is legend!

Regarding buying a foreign registered yacht and maintaining that country's registration: that's not an option in most cases as apparently international law prohibits countries from registering, or maintaining registry for 'foreign owned' vessels. I can't explain how all those 'flag of convenience' countries (Cooks, IoM, Guernsey, Jersey, Bermuda, Cayman Is, etc, etc) get around it but they seem to manage no problem.

Both UK registries include EU and Commonwealth citizens as eligible. The Part 3 Small Ships Registry (SSR) requires at least 185 days of UK residency per year, while the Part 1 British Ships Registry via one of the dependencies (eg Jersey, Isle of Man, etc) allows the use of an official agent to provide UK residency.

There are other differences between the two, but if you don’t intend to sail in the UK it probably doesn’t matter much which one you chose.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Tikka

My understanding, the requirement does apply for racing and commercial only.

Are you referring to the "36ft minimum length" here?

[Snowpetrel]

I don't think you could find any meaningful statistical differences due having cat1 vs not. Take the Queens Birthday storm. The major loss of life was from a Cat1 NZ vessel. Its only provides a false sense of security to officials and those with a lack of confidence who probably shouldn't be going anyway. There is nothing particularly special or extra nasty about the waters around NZ.

During many years of getting boats upto cat1 I dont remember once seeing an inspector make any sensible suggestions. It was always nitpicky crap like you haven't spliced a lanyard on all four buckets, or your fuel hoses need replacement because although they meet the aviation standards, they aren't full copper as specified in the 'rools'. Or your stanchions are 10cm out of position.

It also makes me shake my head when they issue a cat1 certifcate and on the bottom it clearly states that "This is not a safety certificate".. So what is it?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I don't think you could find any meaningful statistical differences due having cat1 vs not. Take the Queens Birthday storm. The major loss of life was from a Cat1 NZ vessel. Its only provides a false sense of security to officials and those with a lack of confidence who probably shouldn't be going anyway. There is nothing particularly special or extra nasty about the waters around NZ.

......

I didn't realize that NZ enforced Category 1 requirements in 1994.

Certainly for you jumping through the Cat 1 list doesn't add much benefit to the preparation. For those that are much less experienced I suspect it adds a decent amount. Boats leaving NZ for their first passage (that require Cat 1 survey) are probably much better prepared than lot of the boats that leave the US for a first passage.

[swanman]

Thanks.

[swanman]

Thanks for all this feedback. Some of you hit on the safety angle. I am all for it. Not sure I need someone to checklist me on it though. I am not trying not to be safe. As many of you mentioned NZ is a bit of a nanny state and that comes with frustration and often cost. Many of you had stories around this. Cheers everyone. Sail safe
btw a Hans Christian 33 is the ideal boat for me. If you know of one or similar in the pacific region drop me a line.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by swanman

... Not sure I need someone to checklist me on it though...

It's just one checklist. No mention of carrying a drogue or series drogue (or strongpoints to attach a drogue) so it's seriously deficient IMO. Also haven't noted any auxiliary steering system requirements, and someone mentioned no underwater checks! Checklists like this I can do without.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

It's just one checklist. No mention of carrying a drogue or series drogue ...

Darn, should have read the NZ regs before I criticised them - s.17.31 A sea anchor or drogue or other recognised proven device is required for Cat 1 (multihulls, and any keelboats if less than 5 crew), recommended otherwise. Maybe the NZ regs are pretty sensible in general but I note, for example, my boat fails to comply by not having one of its hand-operated bilge pumps operable from the cockpit, so even though this boat has already been four times across the Atlantic, it would never have been permitted to depart NZ under our rules.

[bluenomads]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Regarding buying a foreign registered yacht and maintaining that country's registration: that's not an option in most cases as apparently international law prohibits countries from registering, or maintaining registry for 'foreign owned' vessels. I can't explain how all those 'flag of convenience' countries (Cooks, IoM, Guernsey, Jersey, Bermuda, Cayman Is, etc, etc) get around it but they seem to manage no problem.

It's different when the registration is through a company. All these flags of convenience are through companies. As far as I've been able to find out, The Netherlands is the better country in Europe at the moment for company ownership of yachts. There are many businesses which will help you register a shelf company with you as owner/shareholder and do the paperwork, then the company owns the boat in whatever jurisdiction the company is registered in. For EU VAT, Netherlands is a good holding state as you don't lose the VAT-paid status (so I'm told - not advice!).

As far as I can tell for Australia though, a cruising permit for a non-Australian registered yacht won't be granted to a company - " a Control Permit is not granted where a craft is owned by a corporation and more than 50% of the owners of the corporation are Australian residents" (from homeaffairs dept). Now I'm not a lawyer, but if an Australian and non-Australian were joint owners of the company which owned the yacht, then the Australian doesn't own "more than 50%" so should be ok ...

[Neptune's Gear]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Darn, should have read the NZ regs before I criticised them - s.17.31 A sea anchor or drogue or other recognised proven device is required for Cat 1 (multihulls, and any keelboats if less than 5 crew), recommended otherwise. Maybe the NZ regs are pretty sensible in general but I note, for example, my boat fails to comply by not having one of its hand-operated bilge pumps operable from the cockpit, so even though this boat has already been four times across the Atlantic, it would never have been permitted to depart NZ under our rules.

The rules are somewhat flexible. They are a good start, but for a boat with that history, provided it was competently crewed, that would NOT have prevented it obtaining cat 1. It is a good idea though, to have a pump operable from the cockpit.

[swanman]

just came across this. Can it be that easy??

https://www.dutchyachtregistration.com/#

Buy a yacht deregister it and then register in Holland/Belgium? Wonder if I would have to pay duty/gst if I kept the yacht in NZ ?