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Old 31-03-2014, 16:40   #31
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Re: Red over white....

At the end of the day, if the boat you are looking at is displaying lights or shapes of a vessel engaged in fishing, you act accordingly. If that vessel is incorrectly displaying lights or shapes,that is another matter.
Any other boat operating fishing gear, but not displaying lights or shapes is not granted any privileged status.
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Old 31-03-2014, 16:41   #32
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Re: Red over white....

@ranger. My post was meant to compliment yours. Not detract. There's too many misinterpretations of what trolling, trawling, and the application to Colregs means
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Old 31-03-2014, 16:56   #33
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Re: Red over white....

For Steve

Dont forget the additional light signals for fishing vessels as described in Annex II of the colregs, extra points in your exam, and for bonus points, some of the additional light signals are replaced by code flags by day (not that anyone uses them), code flags G, P, T and Z
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Old 31-03-2014, 17:25   #34
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Re: Red over white....

My beating the horse is because , in this forum often incorrect 'personal interpretations' especially Colregs related are read by others. Then, once read the newbie assumes it as fact. When in reality (by my own count) there are six different replies in this thread alone that are completely wrong about trolling and it's perceived protected status ( that does not exist) under Colregs. A vessel operator cannot ( of their own interpretation of Colregs) decide if the rules apply to them. Fishing boats are one of the worst offenders. They travel to and from the fishing grounds lit as engaged in fishing (or trawling). All while doing 10 to 14 knots, all while expecting everyone to give way. One more instance when having the lights on does NOT mean they actually are doing what they 'say' they are doing.
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Old 31-03-2014, 17:39   #35
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Re: Red over white....

Thanks, Nigel. I'll freely admit I had never even LOOKED at Annex II. I'm not sure if I'll get the extra points.

And there are very few code flags that I know. Certainly not these. So I can't count on the bonus points, either.

Thanks for the additional info.
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Old 31-03-2014, 17:49   #36
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Re: Red over white....

FWIW,

A good discussion of oft misinterpreted rules... thanks to all who helped me get the definitions of various fishing activities straight.

But it brings up one of my pet peeves: fishing vessels which routinely display their day and night "engaged in fishing/trawling" signals when not engaged in those activities. As in when steaming full speed in and out of harbour, at their dock, at the fuel wharf... all of which I see on the East coast of Oz. Oh, and lets not forget the dive boats with "diver down" flags displayed 24/7.

These common practices somewhat dilute the desire to follow the avoidance rules. I still try to do the right thing, but it gets my goat at times when I go to some trouble to steer around an ostensible trawler at night, only to find him making way at six or seven knots with his gear up when I am within visual inspection distance.

Cheers,

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Old 31-03-2014, 19:08   #37
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Re: Red over white....

@steve

What license are you going for? 50, 100?

It depends on the license you are going for how in depth the questions will be. The higher level the license the more in depth they go with the questions. Typically for < 100 tons they don't give you many (if any) annex ll questions. And maybe a couple annex l qs.
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Old 31-03-2014, 19:47   #38
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Re: Red over white....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
Since so few pleasure boaters know and understand the meaning of these lights and shapes, I'm not sure that it would be effective. One night, I was on a destroyer performing speed trials and we were displaying the lights in rule 27(b)(i) when a sailing vessel called us on the VHF to ask if we had seen him!
Curious what the aspect was of the SV to your ship. Were you overtaking them? If so, check out rule 13!

You say you were RAM. During speed trials, does not imply a restriction in vessels maneuverability. On the contrary, when 'at speed' a vessel is more maneuverable, and must be cognizant of such ability to get out of the way while AT high speeds. If your argument is to hold water, then all the 30 to 40 knot fast ferries are stand on vessels?! Just because you 'desire' to have everyone 'stay out of your way' does not justify you putting up 'RAM' lights so you can avoid Colregs. You actually must have a genuine Restriction for 27 B i to apply.

If you want to quote a rule that should have been followed, A rule 1 c might be more pertinent. BUT, misapplication (or understanding what RAM means) is more confusing to both the mis interpreter, and the accompanying vessel.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:29   #39
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Re: Red over white....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
@ranger. My post was meant to compliment yours. Not detract. There's too many misinterpretations of what trolling, trawling, and the application to Colregs means

OK. I was beginning to think I somehow wasn't saying "trolling is not fishing or trawling" in a way you understood.

Just to be clear, do you think I said in post 6 or 16 that trolling grants any privilege according to the rules?

-Chris
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:56   #40
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Re: Red over white....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
FWIW,

A good discussion of oft misinterpreted rules... thanks to all who helped me get the definitions of various fishing activities straight.

But it brings up one of my pet peeves: fishing vessels which routinely display their day and night "engaged in fishing/trawling" signals when not engaged in those activities. As in when steaming full speed in and out of harbour, at their dock, at the fuel wharf... all of which I see on the East coast of Oz. Oh, and lets not forget the dive boats with "diver down" flags displayed 24/7.

These common practices somewhat dilute the desire to follow the avoidance rules. I still try to do the right thing, but it gets my goat at times when I go to some trouble to steer around an ostensible trawler at night, only to find him making way at six or seven knots with his gear up when I am within visual inspection distance.

Cheers,

Jim
I often wonder when total "intentional" disregard to signals became commonplace for lack of jurisprudence or even flat out "navigational bullying"

Every situational maritime society has me jumping backwards to the next one...

I suppose somewhere in Mesopotamia "Ankh" said "leave the fish flag flying so Samir won't come crowd our channel"....

*sigh* It sucks....
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:47   #41
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Re: Red over white....

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve77 View Post
Five short blasts means "Wake up, come up to the helm, and take your boat off autopilot so you don't hit me."

Well, we're trying to learn the COLREGs. It's not that hard to memorize the rules, but I want to know how to apply them, as well. Thanks for the responses!
Not exactly Five short blasts means "I do not understand your intentions". However it is frequently used for attention getting - albeit not correctly so.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:55   #42
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Re: Red over white....

Several posts back, I wrote
Five short blasts means "Wake up, come up to the helm, and take your boat off autopilot so you don't hit me."

And the response
Quote:
Not exactly Five short blasts means "I do not understand your intentions". However it is frequently used for attention getting - albeit not correctly so.
All right, maybe my post was not precisely worded, and a little flippant. And far be it from me to disagree with a moderator. I went back and looked at the COLREGs, and did some reading to check my understanding.

Rule 34 says, in part,
(d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. Such signal may be supplemented by at least five short and rapid flashes.

So, as I understand it, it's not just a signal to be used casually anytime you don't understand someone's intentions. It is a signal that is used to alert the other vessel that you have doubt they are taking sufficient action to avoid collision.

So, I would maintain that David M and I are both correct in our posts by stating the use of five short blasts. This signal IS for attention getting if the reason is to alert the other vessel that you have doubt that they are taking action sufficient to avoid collision.

Am I misunderstanding the use of this sound signal?
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:07   #43
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Re: Red over white....

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve77 View Post

Am I misunderstanding the use of this sound signal?
I think you have correct understanding. The signal is to indicate that you are either unsure of the other vessels intentions, or, and more commonly used, bringing to the their attention that you do not consider them to be taking the appropriate action.
I used this about a month ago when a small cargo ship was on a steady bearing on my port bow, while we were towing an oil rig.
Once I did get his attention, he then really ballsed it up by altering course to port and crossed our bow. By then my bucket of at least 5 short blasts was empty, so just gave them that "that look".
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:12   #44
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Re: Red over white....

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve77 View Post
Several posts back, I wrote
Five short blasts means "Wake up, come up to the helm, and take your boat off autopilot so you don't hit me."

And the response


All right, maybe my post was not precisely worded, and a little flippant. And far be it from me to disagree with a moderator. I went back and looked at the COLREGs, and did some reading to check my understanding.

Rule 34 says, in part,
(d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. Such signal may be supplemented by at least five short and rapid flashes.

So, as I understand it, it's not just a signal to be used casually anytime you don't understand someone's intentions. It is a signal that is used to alert the other vessel that you have doubt they are taking sufficient action to avoid collision.

So, I would maintain that David M and I are both correct in our posts by stating the use of five short blasts. This signal IS for attention getting if the reason is to alert the other vessel that you have doubt that they are taking action sufficient to avoid collision.

Am I misunderstanding the use of this sound signal?
No - now you are not misunderstanding. The signal is used (correctly) to signal that you are comprehendring an approaching vessels intentions (re collision avoidance).

I merely noted that many on the water use it for attention getting (incorrectly). Last year on another thread, someone claimed that the USCG had told him it was the "attention getting signal" and should be used to warn another vessel that it was standing into danger (this is not correct).

For "you are standing into danger" (RYA 1969 "you are running into danger)) you can hoist the flag "Uniform". Since almost noone understands flags anymore, you can use the Morse signal - two short, one long blast on your horn.

I don't know of any signal that means "Wake up, come up to the helm, and take your boat off autopilot so you don't hit me." LOL

I wasn't criticizing. If I spotted a boat with no one at the helm and thought there was a danger of collision, I would also use 5 blasts. You did, however, note you were studying for your captains papers so I thought a (very gentle) remand might be order
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:57   #45
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Re: Red over white....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Curious what the aspect was of the SV to your ship. Were you overtaking them? If so, check out rule 13!
IIRC, we were seeing the sailing vessel on our port bow. I have no idea if she was sailing or motoring (don't remember her lights).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
You say you were RAM. During speed trials, does not imply a restriction in vessels maneuverability. On the contrary, when 'at speed' a vessel is more maneuverable, and must be cognizant of such ability to get out of the way while AT high speeds. If your argument is to hold water, then all the 30 to 40 knot fast ferries are stand on vessels?! Just because you 'desire' to have everyone 'stay out of your way' does not justify you putting up 'RAM' lights so you can avoid Colregs. You actually must have a genuine Restriction for 27 B i to apply.

If you want to quote a rule that should have been followed, A rule 1 c might be more pertinent. BUT, misapplication (or understanding what RAM means) is more confusing to both the mis interpreter, and the accompanying vessel.
Rule 3 says:
(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.
The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to (my emphasis):
(i) A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.
The restriction in our ability to maneuver didn't result from our speed but from the need to follow a predetermined track (2 straight legs on reciprocal headings, connected by turns with a specified rudder angle). Then, I thought that our ability to maneuver was sufficiently restricted to justify displaying the corresponding lights. We were almost as restricted as when launching aircraft or surveying. Anyway, I had no part in the decision, I was merely running the trial.

Alain
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