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Old 31-03-2014, 11:12   #16
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Re: Red over white....

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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
I thought the rules were applicable to commercial fishing and not to sport fishing.
Rule 3 is key:

Rule 3 is key:

(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.


The "maneuverability" part is the main thrust.

Around here, trolling lots of lines DOES restrict maneuverability, but that wouldn't normally be the case in open ocean and deep water. And I wouldn't argue that the way we troll here in relatively shallow water would somehow grant us any additional privilege... since the rules are about preventing collisions, not about saving money in lures...

-Chris
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Old 31-03-2014, 11:16   #17
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Re: Red over white....

On a friend's boat last Friday we were operating in the upper navigable reaches of the Napa River. Smack in the middle of the narrow channel was a recreational fisherman in an anchored open boat, fishing for sturgeon. (Staying in the middle is vital to avoid grounding.) We ran over his line, snagging it on the rudder. We had to cut the line, but were able to recover the "business" end, including the bait, and returned it to the fisherman. Wonder if the fisherman learned his lesson (doubt it).

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Old 31-03-2014, 11:57   #18
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Re: Red over white....

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
It would be a lot easier to give them a wide berth if they didn't keep changing course so erratically and unpredictably.
I've heard power boaters say the same thing about sail boats.

Lobstermen and crabbers work from one string of pots to the next. They're seldom on a steady course for long while they're tending their gear. If you know this, you can stay out of the area they're working, and not get worried when they momentarily appear to be on a collision course. Nine times out of ten, they're just heading to their next buoy and will stop or turn after a few seconds.

Likewise, power boaters should understand the basics of sailing.

Knowing the Nav Rules is a very good thing. But knowing how other boaters use the waters we all share makes life much simpler for everyone.
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Old 31-03-2014, 13:41   #19
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Re: Red over white....

This thread is rife with several examples of why people are confused. Even though several people have 'directly quoted' the correct rules, some others have interchanged definitions, and even tried to 'justify' their own incorrect interpretation of the rules.

Put simply as interpreted by the rules, vessels 'protected' by this rule are: trawling is fishing by dragging some type of net, trawl, dredge, gear (usually heavy) through the water or on the bottom.
Fishing is using lines, wires, nets (not necessarily fixed to the bottom, but may be).

In either case in NO uncertain terms is TROLLING considered 'fishing' in a protected status as far as the rules go. NEVER.

No matter how many lines, how many dollars worth of lures, no matter if it's ' fish on!' Monofilament is NOT what is being discussed in the rules. Lines means heavy lines, used to pull gear aboard, fasten it to the bottom, or pull traps. If you are using a fishing rod you are trolling. Move outta the way.


Now, how about the 'vessel under 20 meters not impeding a vessel which cannot depart the channel'? Even if the smaller vessel can't leave the channel! Move it, or lose it.
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Old 31-03-2014, 14:07   #20
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Re: Red over white....

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I've heard power boaters say the same thing about sail boats.

Lobstermen and crabbers work from one string of pots to the next. They're seldom on a steady course for long while they're tending their gear. If you know this, you can stay out of the area they're working, and not get worried when they momentarily appear to be on a collision course. Nine times out of ten, they're just heading to their next buoy and will stop or turn after a few seconds.

Likewise, power boaters should understand the basics of sailing.

Knowing the Nav Rules is a very good thing. But knowing how other boaters use the waters we all share makes life much simpler for everyone.
I quite agree. As a former sailboater, I'm familiar with sailboat maneuvers. Nevertheless, I've seen sailors make whimsical moves without considering other boats. That's not unique with sailors, however. Thankfully, most all boaters perform in an "orchestrated ballet" avoiding collision and drama.
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Old 31-03-2014, 14:13   #21
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Re: Red over white....

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I quite agree. As a former sailboater, I'm familiar with sailboat maneuvers. Nevertheless, I've seen sailors make whimsical moves without considering other boats. That's not unique with sailors, however. Thankfully, most all boaters perform in an "orchestrated ballet" avoiding collision and drama.

I agree, too; it often helps to be able to anticipate what "that boat over there" (especially a sailboat) is about to do.

And yes, whimsy does sometimes seem to abound over the main... no matter what manner of propulsion is in use at the time.



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Old 31-03-2014, 14:23   #22
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Re: Red over white....

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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
I thought the rules were applicable to commercial fishing and not to sport fishing.
If a sport fisherman has a trawl out then he is red over white status. The rules do not differentiate between commercial or not.
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Old 31-03-2014, 14:35   #23
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Re: Red over white....

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I don't completely follow the logic of sword fishing with long lines being classified as trawling, though. Wouldn't that be fishing instead of trawling?
Commercial longline sword fishermen lay out extremely long lines, miles long, with thousands of drop hooks spaced at intervals. They travel along the line, retrieving it and boating fish and rebaiting hooks. So from a navigational perspective they behave similarly to trawlers.
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Old 31-03-2014, 14:51   #24
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Re: Red over white....

The greatest danger is the distracted, "tuned out," or asleep helmsman. Us included.
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Old 31-03-2014, 15:14   #25
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Re: Red over white....

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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Rule 3 is key:
The "maneuverability" part is the main thrust.

Around here, trolling lots of lines DOES restrict maneuverability, but that wouldn't normally be the case in open ocean and deep water. And I wouldn't argue that the way we troll here in relatively shallow water would somehow grant us any additional privilege... since the rules are about preventing collisions, not about saving money in lures...

-Chris
Trolling does NOT restrict maneuverability. The concern with trolling is preservation of the set, the lures, and the trollers intentions. In NO way is any kind of Trolling "Restricted in Ability to Maneuver" as is the intentions of the rules.

I know it is hard to fathom, but a boat trolling CAN move, alter course and get out of the way of others. But, (gasp) few care to admit that.

The key word is Trawling. Trawling is NOT Trolling. Trolling is NOT fishing, as per the Colregs. Sorry charlie, this tuna knows better.
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Old 31-03-2014, 15:16   #26
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Re: Red over white....

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Originally Posted by steve77 View Post
I don't completely follow the logic of sword fishing with long lines being classified as trawling, though. Wouldn't that be fishing instead of trawling?
Sword fishing IS fishing, not trawling.
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Old 31-03-2014, 15:32   #27
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Re: Red over white....

A vessel engaged in trolling with lines restricting he ability to maneuver could display the day shapes or lights defined by Rule 27(b):
(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
(ii) three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond.
Since so few pleasure boaters know and understand the meaning of these lights and shapes, I'm not sure that it would be effective. One night, I was on a destroyer performing speed trials and we were displaying the lights in rule 27(b)(i) when a sailing vessel called us on the VHF to ask if we had seen him!

Even merchant navy officers make mistakes: 2 years ago, a trawler was rammed and sunk by a tanker because the officer of the watch had not seen the day shapes, so he thought he was the stand-on vessel.

Alain
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Old 31-03-2014, 15:36   #28
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Re: Red over white....

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
If a sport fisherman has a trawl out then he is red over white status. The rules do not differentiate between commercial or not.
Interesting twist on the subject. I have never seen a 'sportfishing' trawler!

I think this is what confuses the masses. Sport fishing is line, and rod and reel. This does NOT reduce maneuverability. Unfortunatley people 'think' it qualifies them to claim protected status under rule 18. (Rule 3 is only the definition, not the practical rule) Read rule 18. Particularly 18 A iii, and B iii.


Then again, take a license course and actually learn the rules a little bit. They are a handful to learn. It's not so simple as: I'm a sailboat, everyone get outta my way.
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Old 31-03-2014, 16:27   #29
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Red over white....

@hydra. You almost had a believer there in that post. Until the word Trolling was used instead of Trawling. Careful understanding the definitions (rule 3) precludes trolling from the rule 18 B iii. So your reference to 23 is in error in these discussions.

The post about trolling with planar boards and 20 lines set is incorrect. Trolling is trolling. Just because someone 'sets' their throttle lock and 'doesn't want to' give way does not make it correct or a legal defense to not alter course when needed ( gear loss or no gear loss). Either the rules are followed.......
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Old 31-03-2014, 16:33   #30
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Re: Red over white....

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Trolling does NOT restrict maneuverability. The concern with trolling is preservation of the set, the lures, and the trollers intentions. In NO way is any kind of Trolling "Restricted in Ability to Maneuver" as is the intentions of the rules.

I know it is hard to fathom, but a boat trolling CAN move, alter course and get out of the way of others. But, (gasp) few care to admit that.

The key word is Trawling. Trawling is NOT Trolling. Trolling is NOT fishing, as per the Colregs. Sorry charlie, this tuna knows better.

That's pretty much exactly what I meant, with respect to the Rules, and that's why I pasted the def from Rule 3. And you'll see in my earlier post, a plea for mercy, not an argument for privilege. Reread what I said, and if still not clear, ignore it.

-Chris
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