Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-08-2011, 16:11   #46
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,831
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd22 View Post
There is no "nap" light configuration or dayshape. It is not NUC, not RAM, not anything except "failure to maintain a proper watch". Just because you choose to violate one of the most basic regs does not make it right to use an incorrect light signal. If you choose to do so, at least acknowledge that that is what you are doing, don't try to rationalize it because it doesn't conveniently fall into another legit classification. If I were going to solo I would mount red over green lights and hope for the best, but I would not display red over red or any other combination unless the situation qualified under the rules. Any time you start changing the rules to suit yourself someone else (that knows the rules) is going to misinterpret what you doing and could not only put you in danger but the other vessel as well.
Wow....ever spend much time in the middle of the ocean with large commercial traffic going by???? A small sailboat with red over red is hardly going to hazard anyone....
__________________

__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:12   #47
Mooderator
 
capngeo's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Key West & Sarasota
Boat: Cal 28 "Happy Days"
Posts: 4,211
Images: 12
Send a message via Yahoo to capngeo Send a message via Skype™ to capngeo
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
If I saw an anchor light mid-ocean I'd probably assume I was seeing a stern light. Or maybe a steaming light.

Either way, it's probably not the message you want to send.
So you’d run them down?
__________________

__________________
Any fool with a big enough checkbook can BUY a boat; it takes a SPECIAL type of fool to build his own! -Capngeo
capngeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:20   #48
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Are you advocating no single handing or doing nothing to suggest a "status change" if the crew does nap???
Personally I would make an extended solo trip that required me to sleep. I would also not want to be in the vicinity of anyone doing so.

I have extensive experience in both passages, overnight sails and 48 hours sails. In total I have about 1200 hours of night sailing accumulated; all with crew.

If you wish to do so, please feel free, knowing that you are quite possibly in violation of the ColRegs. But that is for a court to decide.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:23   #49
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
So you’d run them down?
If you think you see a stern-light, you would be an overtaking vessel and be required to keep clear. If you think you see a steaming light, you would be in a crossing situation and you would look for a side-light (or two) to determine who was stand-on and who was give-way.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:29   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Wow....ever spend much time in the middle of the ocean with large commercial traffic going by????
Yes.

Quote:
A small sailboat with red over red is hardly going to hazard anyone....
They could well be. Anyone prepared to violate one of the ColRegs, may be just willing to violate others.

Heave-to, leave your nav lights on (stern and sidelights), make sure you have a good radar reflector, set a radar alarm, set an AIS alarm and be prepared for the consequences.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:30   #51
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,831
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

I think the joke is that small sailboats should do whatever necessary not to get run over...THAT'S THE TRUE SPIRIT of the COLREGS!!!!!

While sailboats have the right of way in open water...we all know how effectice COLREGS lighting really works for small sailboats. AND DOES ANYONE THINK THE POWERS TO BE CARE?????? If they did...there would be a lot more going on in the maritime community to change things a lot faster...probably because there's just such a low number of collisions based solely on lights.

So discuss all you want but until there's clear direction or even some interest at international organizational level...I doubt it really matters no matter what you do...so do whatever you think will prevent you from getting run over.
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:32   #52
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Non standard lighting...

Showing any recognizable lights may not be desirable. I thought flashing yellow was a high speed craft (hovercraft, hydrofoil..).

But any non standard collection of lights may be better than nothing. Something that registers in the sleepy brain of the watchkeeper on a freighter.

I'll suggest flashing blue, maybe one over the other. Those police lights are pretty hard to ignore.
__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:34   #53
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2011
Location: PDX
Boat: Gulfstar 50
Posts: 895
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

First off you would be in violation of rule 5 See: Ask Attorney at least this lawyer thinks so.

I*'m at a bit of a loss as to the point of some of the posts on this thread. It appears that some are trying to make an exception to rule 5 for single handers.... But the modified rule could apply to others as well.

I would hate to be run over by a bulk oil carrier with no one at lookout (ot any other way for that matter).
__________________
evm1024 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:38   #54
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Interesting portion of an article.

Quote:
How far does this pattern of thought go? In a 1984 court case (Granholm v. TFL
Express), a singlehanded yacht, Granholm, was run down from behind by the freighter
TFL Express (WindCheck, “Rules of Engagement,” October 2010.) The owner of the
Granholm sued the Express for failing to maintain a proper lookout (Rule 5) and to give
way to the overtaken vessel (Rule 13). The court agreed – but found the skipper of the
Granholm equally at fault. He was sleeping and thus had no lookout. “The obligation to
maintain a proper lookout falls upon great vessels and small, alike.”
But what of the singlehander who must sleep at some point? In fact, there is a widely
sanctioned race of singlehanders who race around the world. In the three-plus months
they are at sea, they must be asleep for the equivalent of a month! The courts have ruled
that the failure of the singlehander to maintain a proper – constant – lookout is
irresponsible in the context of Rule 5 AND Rule 2 (see above.) In summary, long,
singlehanded passages are by their very nature irresponsible and contrary to the
COLREGs – which govern all of us every time we leave the dock.
http://www.atlanticmaritimeacademy.c...12-colreg5.pdf
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:38   #55
Mooderator
 
capngeo's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Key West & Sarasota
Boat: Cal 28 "Happy Days"
Posts: 4,211
Images: 12
Send a message via Yahoo to capngeo Send a message via Skype™ to capngeo
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
If you think you see a stern-light, you would be an overtaking vessel and be required to keep clear. If you think you see a steaming light, you would be in a crossing situation and you would look for a side-light (or two) to determine who was stand-on and who was give-way.
Exactly! Regardless you’d stay out of the bludi way, no?

One thing I’ve learned (outside of that required for my first license 25 years ago) is that regardless of COLREGS, the rule of gross tonnage supersedes all other rules. YOU may be correct in the application of the rules, and in the eyes of the court, you’d be right......DEAD RIGHT!

If you’re singlehanding in a small boat and you HAVE to sleep, ANYTHING that attracts the attention of the watchstander of a ship bearing down on you is the CORRECT signal. Book learning is but ONE tool in your bag of tricks called experience... and 90% of it goes out the window when you slip the dock lines!
__________________
Any fool with a big enough checkbook can BUY a boat; it takes a SPECIAL type of fool to build his own! -Capngeo
capngeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:43   #56
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

From another sailing forum

Quote:
As a follow up I emailed the USCG and talked to a friend who is an admiralty law attorney. Scraph's original interpretation of the rule was incorrect, for bad or good, but single-handed sailors are not absolved of rule 5 and keeping a look out via sight and eharing:

Here's the response:

"Sir,

Regarding single-handed lookouts, the 'best input' has been provided by the Court(s): "It may seem unfeeling to condemn single handed transatlantic sailors for sleeping at night. But they pursue this hazardous avocation voluntarily, and are not exempt from the requirements of prudent seamanship...[this sailor's] decision to go below during the nighttime was negligent. The obligation to maintain a proper lookout falls upon great vessels and small alike."
--GRANHOLM v. TFL EXPRESS, 576 F.Supp. 435, 1984 A.M.C. 943

We hope this answers your inquiry and we exhort you to always navigate safely,

U.S. Coast Guard
Office of Navigation Systems
Washington, DC 20593-7851"

And a brief excerpt from the ruling (Camera was the sailboat and Express the ship):

"The CAMERA's failure to maintain an attentive lookout rises to the level of that of the EXPRESS; indeed, the failure to maintain any lookout at all at night constitutes a more severe degree of neglect. That is sufficient to overcome any advantage which the CAMERA might otherwise enjoy as (1) an overtaken vessel which (2) was under sail."

As I read that the judge gave more weight to the fact that he did not maintain a proper look out than the fact that the ship was over taking and give way to a vessel under sail.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:50   #57
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,455
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Right, Jack, they apportioned equal blame... but the monetary judgement was against the ship and in favor of the yacht, DESPITE his failure to stand watch.

There seems to be a mixed message here.

In the case of approaching a vessel showing only an anchor light -- when they look for a side light and don't see one, they must assume that it is a stern light, and thus need to keep clear as an overtaking vessel. Not how it is supposed to work, but this should avoid the collision.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 16:59   #58
Registered User
 
cdennyb's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern California
Boat: finally a catamaran dive boat...
Posts: 505
Send a message via MSN to cdennyb Send a message via Yahoo to cdennyb Send a message via Skype™ to cdennyb
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

So what I get from the core of this thread is...

Singlehanding beyond one's ability to stay awake and fullfilling the rule #5 makes for an illegal passage.
__________________
the perfect dive boat is one you're on...
cdennyb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 17:15   #59
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Right, Jack, they apportioned equal blame... but the monetary judgement was against the ship and in favor of the yacht, DESPITE his failure to stand watch.

There seems to be a mixed message here.

In the case of approaching a vessel showing only an anchor light -- when they look for a side light and don't see one, they must assume that it is a stern light, and thus need to keep clear as an overtaking vessel. Not how it is supposed to work, but this should avoid the collision.

Cheers,

Jim
Just show a red over green (in addition to nav lights), or a tricolour.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2011, 17:31   #60
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,312
Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

all this rule debate, since it is so debated what do you think the chances are that others are going to know them and understand them the same way as you?
__________________

__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Red and Green All-Around Lights jrd22 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 123 23-08-2011 09:39
Alpenglow LED Reading Lights RainDog Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 1 19-08-2011 06:36
Phillipine Red 'Meranti" Plywood - Trustworthy? Gone2long Construction, Maintenance & Refit 10 05-07-2011 12:34



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.