Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

[doug86]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Actually...the only lights that MAKE sense are NUC...a sigle handed vessel with the only person on board sleeping will NOT be able to comply with the rules...therefore NUC....RAM is less appropriate because it's not specifically spelled out or the more common term "by nature of the vessel's work".

What other lights would tell another vessel that yours WILL NOT comply with the rules because you are asleep...without drastically changing what is going on like showing aground lights in 1000 fathoms?

NUC doesn't mean you will not comply with ALL the rules, it means that you probably can't comply with maneuvering rules. Every vessel displaying Red over Red is still obligate to maintain a proper lookout at all times:

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

A singlehander asleep is in violation of the COLREGs and will have zero defense in Admiralty court in the event of a collision, regardless of the lights/shapes displayed.

Not saying we don't do it, just saying that you takes your chances and you pays the price.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by doug86

NUC doesn't mean you will not comply with ALL the rules, it means that you probably can't comply with maneuvering rules. Every vessel displaying Red over Red is still obligate to maintain a proper lookout at all times:


A singlehander asleep is in violation of the COLREGs and will have zero defense in Admiralty court in the event of a collision, regardless of the lights/shapes displayed.

Not saying we don't do it, just saying that you takes your chances and you pays the price.

actually in another thread it had a finding where the alseep sailor was chastized but awarded a monetary award from being run over by a ship.

[Bash]

This is getting a bit silly.

Consider the following scenario. You are singlehanding and you go down below to sleep. A ship approaches from astern, and sees that your are NUC, according to your signals, and attempts to initiate contact to determine whether you need assistance. Suddenly, you wake up, and hastily decide to change course because the ship is approaching.

See a problem with this? You've already signalled the ship that you are not able to do what you are now doing.

About 15 years ago a bunch of singlehanders decided that it would be good to fire off a masthead strobe every time they went to bed. It was a freaking disaster because this was often interpreted to be a distress signal.

NUC indicates that there is serious trouble within the vessel. Don't use it just because you want a nap.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Bash

This is getting a bit silly.

Consider the following scenario. You are singlehanding and you go down below to sleep. A ship approaches from astern, and sees that your are NUC, according to your signals, and attempts to initiate contact to determine whether you need assistance. Suddenly, you wake up, and hastily decide to change course because the ship is approaching.

See a problem with this? You've already signalled the ship that you are not able to do what you are now doing.

About 15 years ago a bunch of singlehanders decided that it would be good to fire off a masthead strobe every time they went to bed. It was a freaking disaster because this was often interpreted to be a distress signal.

NUC indicates that there is serious trouble within the vessel. Don't use it just because you want a nap.

So big deal about changing course...the ship should aready have given your NUC lights a wide berth..and at sailing speed...you are no threat.

I think it's the only light you should be using if no one is at the helm and you are making way.

Silly? YOu have neither reall shown why it's not an exceptional circumstance where a vessel can't comply or show where anything else is better? Silly???? not so sure why you think that either....

[David M]

I totally agree Bash.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by David M

I totally agree Bash.

Can YOU show where it's not an exceptional circumstance or what would be better?

[David M]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Can YOU show where it's not an exceptional circumstance or what would be better?

I'm sorry, can you explain what you mean? What is "it"?

[FSMike]

Am I correct in assuming that all you folks opposed to red over red are happy with a vessel underway showing regular nav lights when the crew is asleep?

Or do you have alternative lighting suggestions when a vessel is underway without any crew on watch?

Please note this question deals ONLY with lighting suggestions. Tell me what you would like to see when you are in a crossing situation with a vessel underway that, unbeknownst to you, has a sleeping crew.

[David M]

"Red over Red - Yachtie in Bed"

Sorry...I couldn't resist this newest way of remembering what "Red over Red" means.

All I can say is, good luck to anyone who chooses to take this risk. I am going to bow out of this discussion because I am of the firm belief in the traditional meaning of NUC (What I was taught at Cal Maritime Academy by professional mariners) and not a conjured up new meaning so solo sailors can supposedly legally sleep without a proper watch.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by David M

"Red over Red - Yachtie in Bed"

Sorry...I couldn't resist our newest way of remembering what "Red over Red" means.

All I can say is, good luck to anyone who chooses to take this risk. I am going to bow out of this discussion because I am of the firm belief that Red over Red is the traditional meaning and not a conjured up new meaning so solo sailors can legally sleep without a proper watch.

What's the "proper" meaning??? It's vague enough for me to interpret it...and maybe it's that vague to cover more possibilities than many think.

[Bash]

If your rudder falls off, fine. You are officially NUC, you deserve extra consideration according to the rules of the road.

If you're snoozing, sorry. You are still officially obliged to follow the rules of the road.

Quickest way to lose style points when singlehanding? Claiming to be disabled just because you're sleepy.

[bewitched]

Originally Posted by Bash

About 15 years ago a bunch of singlehanders decided that it would be good to fire off a masthead strobe every time they went to bed. It was a freaking disaster because this was often interpreted to be a distress signal.

Sorry for the slight thread drift, but this keeps pops up from time to time and I never follow it. When I see a flashing / strobe light, I always assume it's a net, because that's how they are usually marked in this part of the world.

Why would a strobe be interpreted as a distress signal?

[jackdale]

From Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road by Llana & Wisneskey
Rule 27

A vessel not under command has usually suffered a disability, which is not easy to predict or classify. An example would be a vessel with a disabled rudder. The navigation light requirement is, therefore, brief and general.

Chris Llana is a former Coast Guard officer with a B.S. in naval architecture and marine engineering and advanced degrees in marine affairs (MMA) and law (JD). During his tenure as a civilian at Coast Guard Headquarters, he drafted the annexes to the Inland Navigation Rules and wrote other regulations implementing both International and Inland Navigation Rules

The vessel is disabled, not the crew.

[jackdale]

Another reference

Examples of vessels which are likely to be accepted "not under command":
a vessel which have had breakdown of her engine(s);
a vessel which have had breakdown of her steering gear;
a vessel which have lost a propeller;
a vessel which have lost her rudder;
a vessel with her anchor down but not holding;
a vessel riding to anchor chains with anchors unshackled;
a sailing vessel becalmed;
a vessel affected in such an exceptional way by weather conditions, that she is unable to keep out of the way of another vessel by alteration of course and/or speed, thus justifying her showing of not under command signals.

With reference to "A Guide to the Collision Avoidance Rules" by A.N. Cockcroft and J.N.F. Lameijer.

Maritime routes: A vessel not under command

Note it is vessel, not the crew, that is disabled.

[TheManWhoSpoke]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Can YOU show where it's not an exceptional circumstance or what would be better?

well I'm sure that other have said this before, but every navigation course book I have read refers to exceptional circumstance as things that are beyond the control of the skipper. Such as Engine failure, steerage failure, becalmed sailing vessel - or otherwise unable to propel or manouver itself.

The definition of vessel does not include the skipper, because the skipper is giving command, he is not subject to command. Hence, it is always expected that a skipper will be in the position to give command to his vessel. A vessel is said to be NUC when it is rendered incapable of answering the command of the skipper - hence the skipper is out of control, due to the fault of the vessel itself.

As was also said before, NUC vessels will still keep a very good watch. So they can warn other vessels with VHF, Aldis lamp and horn. NUC is not permission to throw ones hands in the air and submit onself to fate. NUC vessels still take passive actions to avoid collision... So it doesn't communicate the no watch siduation.

Perhaps this is semantics. If you collide, You're probably boned anyway... As for the flashing light idea, a yellow light flashing twice per second seems to be the international signal for "stay the f**k away from me". Perhaps you could try that.