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Old 30-08-2011, 08:43   #166
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by Surfer Girl View Post
Some people aren't going to like this but I don't care - what's more important than you or me is the safety of everyone who takes to sea on a boat! That over rides what is convenient. If you cut corners, you increase risk and decrease safety. The word seamanship doesn't just mean how well you can sail a vessel, it encompasses the history, courtesies, selfless help of others in need and practises that make being at sea safe for all!


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+1, good post, 100% in agreement, sums it up nicely
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Old 30-08-2011, 09:06   #167
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post

If displaying the proper lights the sailboat is already the stand on vessel. (it is unlikely the bridge crew of a freighter will see a red over green, or a tricolor, and say ok to run her over, no wait red over red we should go around).

The problem is the fact that sailboats are hard to see and don't show up well on radar, and the bridge crew of a large ship is primarily concerned with things that are big enough to sink them, and take several miles to make a course change.


The simple fact that some, even famous sailboats, have been hit shows there is a problem. Sailboats have been hit that WERE keeping a watch, (a 8kt sailboat cannot out maneuver a 40KT freighter no matter what). It is really up to the freighter to avoid a collision, but first they must see you.
So, if your going to be responsible single hander, make sure you can be seen.
Good lights, a good radar reflector, and a decent AIS unit.
Make sure it all works, I regularly call up ships and check to see if my boat is displaying on their AIS and radar.

And, no, on my big boat, I am primarily concerned with not hitting anything, be it a VLCC or a sail boat, and I make sure my OOW's are sail boat aware, an advantage of having my own sail boat, and being skipper of a commercial vessel.
In the Baltic at the moment, there are plenty of yachts under sail around us, and watch is kept by radar, AIS, eyeball, and anything else which comes to mind.
Two nights ago had to put the brakes on while running an anchor, displaying red white red, back deck lit up like Blackpool, and a sail boat quite happily cutting across the bow, no response to VHF calls either. I suppose I could have run them down, but thats not nice, plus the rules required me to take action, as the vessel which should have, the yacht, did not.
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Old 30-08-2011, 09:24   #168
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
... Start a campaign for sailboat awareness among freight companies, maybe petition to governing authorities for a non emergency "don't hit me" signal. This could be a combination of a distinctive lights and sound with a radio "splash" that can be easily detected by any equipement...
Probably wont happen, as the issue with collision avoidance is detection range, and not what signal you are showing. Red-Green has the same visibility as Red-Red, and the same "collision avoidance potential", (which I might add is not much)... Active class B AIS transponder and powered radar reflectors should be considered essential equipment for single handers. However, you point about installing 5+ Nm lights does carry a lot of merit.

This NUC discussion is relevant, to the extent that a skipper is trying to move their vessel into a higher legal category, without valid cause (ie. "exceptional circumstances"). That there are skippers that think they can hoist 2 red lights, shirk all responsibility and sleep soundly - forcing larger vessels to take all the action is cause for 'education'.
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Old 30-08-2011, 09:32   #169
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
24/7 watch? Only from what I have read, is that a tanker is not going to change course regarless of what you might show, you just better stay clear of them....like that saying, you could be dead right?
That's not the case. Have you been reading people who have actually been out there?

Ships in the open sea will adjust course to avoid collisions with yachts under sail. They do it every day. If you are the stand-on vessel, they would prefer you to maintain course and speed while they adjust their course to avoid you.
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Old 30-08-2011, 09:41   #170
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
That's not the case. Have you been reading people who have actually been out there?

Ships in the open sea will adjust course to avoid collisions with yachts under sail. They do it every day. If you are the stand-on vessel, they would prefer you to maintain course and speed while they adjust their course to avoid you.
That has been my experience. I remember having a conversation with an ocean going while we were going from Bermuda to St, Barths. We were both tracking on radar and the ocean going was clearly crossing our bow by a good distance.
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Old 30-08-2011, 09:49   #171
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

A "legal" interpretation.

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Marine Guidance Note (MGN) 152, issued by the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency states:

Seafarers are reminded that NUC signals should only be used by "vessels not under command". As defined in Rule 3(f) of the COLREGS. A "vessel not under command" is unable to manoeuvre in accordance with the Rules through some exceptional circumstance and is unable to keep out of the way of other vessels. Unfortunately, there appears to be an increasing use of NUC signals by vessels in circumstances which cannot be reasonably defined as exceptional. For example, vessels have been reported using NUC signals while drifting off ports and terminals awaiting orders.
In some cases, vessels erroneously or falsely display NUC signals when their main engines or ancillary machinery are shut down for reasons other than breakdown or necessary maintenance. Such vessels must adhere to their collision avoidance responsibilities as power driven vessels underway (Rule 18 of the COLREGS).
A vessel which is underway and stopped (unless, of course a vessel not under command") must not use the NUC signal but show the appropriate lights and shapes as prescribed in Rules 23, 24, 25 and 26 of the COLREGS and must take action to avoid collision as required.
200706 - Close quarter situation - plus Feedback


This discussion indicates that hove-to is not NUC. I will not post the whole discussion.

200706 - Close quarter situation - plus Feedback

These reports are from MARS (Maritime Accident Reporting Scheme) of the Nautical Institute.

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The Mariners' Alerting and Reporting Scheme is a confidential reporting system run by The Nautical Institute to allow full reporting of Accidents (and Near Misses) without fear of litigation. MARS reports are held in a database which may be searched in different ways from this page.
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Old 30-08-2011, 10:09   #172
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Being the standon vessel is nice,but the rule is to get the Heck out of the way!Unless we chat on the radio probably best to change course.
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Old 30-08-2011, 10:26   #173
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by highseas View Post
Being the standon vessel is nice,but the rule is to get the Heck out of the way!Unless we chat on the radio probably best to change course.
I have had stand on vessels alter course just I gave way and created a potential collision.

BOTH vessels have obligations. And yes I am aware of Rule 2 and 17.
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Old 30-08-2011, 11:16   #174
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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I think that this really sums it up completely.

And actually just 2 weeks ago i had to avoid a VLCC which appeared to be drifting off the port of Cagliari in Sardegna. The VLCC was showing 2 all round vertical red lights, no steaming lights (not making way), no anchor lights (not aground) but also no port/star nav. lights. They were actually under way and appeared to be making way, across my bow from my forward port quarter and therefore my initial reaction was to alter course to port to pass their stern ( i had cagliari to starboard and traffic exiting the port). I tried to hail them on the VHF on 16 and got no response. My course alterations started at about 6nm however within 3 nm the VLCC had drastically altered course to starboard bringing the CPA to less than 1nm. I reduced speed and altered course by more than 100 degrees more to port and headed towards africa. Well past their stern.

My point here is that the signals given were confusing as they were not showing any lights to show their aspect. It was only due to the deck lights highlighting their bridge that allowed me to know their heading and aspect. Also they did not answer their radio after persistant calls on 16.

What scares me is that if i had been in my sailing yacht, my height of eye would be drastically reduced, and my reaction times also. I also fear the fact that for whatever reason this vessel was not maintaining a radio watch. They may never have seen me whilst turning to starboard and i may never have been able to hail them on the radio.
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Old 30-08-2011, 12:16   #175
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Interesting report on confusing lights on yachts.

Quote:
At night you see three lights in a vertical line, the highest and lowest being red and the middle white — obviously a vessel "restricted in ability to manoeuvre". All appears clear cut, until the lights turn into green-white-green!!

What you in fact first saw was the port side of a sailing yacht (under 20 metres) motoring (or motor-sailing) with her steaming light on along with both her masthead combined lantern and ordinary sidelights at the right aspect to produce red-white-red in a vertical line. She then altered course to present her starboard side, hence the perplexing sight of green-white-green in a vertical line!!

Similarly, if she were under sail alone, from her port side you could see red over red, apparently indicating a vessel "not under command".

Perhaps some yachtsmen believe that all merchant vessels are intent on running them down, and that they should show as many lights as possible. It certainly seems to be the growing practice, and the few with whom I have attempted to remonstrate have either ignored VHF and Aldis, or been abusively sure of their "rights". Perhaps this activity needs some more official discouragement.

Feedback

This created an interesting response:

"I read the report with interest, and being a yachtsman, with some embarrassment. Firstly may I confirm the all too common showing of such incorrect lights by some yachtsmen. May I suggest that in addition to trying to teach the offenders the error of their ways, there is some further action that is needed. It appears that the wiring and switches on some yachts do not allow the correct lights to be shown. I have come across one where it was not possible to switch on the steaming light unless the tricolour light at the masthead was also on. Many yachts give complete freedom of choice to the master to select whichever lights he feels are appropriate. However, some yacht manufacturers arrange their light switches so that a choice has to be made whether the tricolour masthead light or the bow/sidelights are to be used in conjunction with a stern light. The steaming light can only be switched on when the bow/sidelight option has been selected. It also precludes two sternlights being shown. If this arrangement could become universally used by the builders of yachts with tricolour masthead lights, perhaps this problem would disappear. Copy of letter sent to RYA as they are better placed to take action to rectify the situation in this country".
Lights on Yacht Wrong
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Old 30-08-2011, 15:14   #176
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by Gracies View Post
I think that this really sums it up completely.

And actually just 2 weeks ago i had to avoid a VLCC which appeared to be drifting off the port of Cagliari in Sardegna. The VLCC was showing 2 all round vertical red lights, no steaming lights (not making way), no anchor lights (not aground) but also no port/star nav. lights. They were actually under way and appeared to be making way,. I tried to hail them on the VHF on 16 and got no response.
. Also they did not answer their radio after persistant calls on 16.
Red over red - means the vessel cannot be counted on to maneuver correctly,

no answer on VHF - crew probably busy trying to fix reason for being NUC.
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Old 30-08-2011, 19:07   #177
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Wink Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Red over red - means the vessel cannot be counted on to maneuver correctly,

no answer on VHF - crew probably busy trying to fix reason for being NUC.
Thats my point the vessel was NUC, off an oil station, posssibly drifting which reading the MGN mentioned above has been prohibited.

"In some cases, vessels erroneously or falsely display NUC signals when their main engines or ancillary machinery are shut down for reasons other than breakdown or necessary maintenance. Such vessels must adhere to their collision avoidance responsibilities as power driven vessels underway (Rule 18 of the COLREGS)."

And the fact being a VLCC is a Very Large Crude Carrier, required by GMDSS to maintain a 24hr radio watch. Being NUC does not exclude them from this. (ok except for maybe having a fire in the radio room and bridge ) I cant imagine such a large ship needing the radio officer in the engine room changing a gasket.

It just shows that you canīt always count on the big ships hearing you or seeing you. Which is pretty scary.
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Old 30-08-2011, 19:16   #178
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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My point here is that the signals given were confusing as they were not showing any lights to show their aspect. It was only due to the deck lights highlighting their bridge that allowed me to know their heading and aspect. Also they did not answer their radio after persistant calls on 16.
I never call a commercial ship on 16. Always 13.
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Old 30-08-2011, 19:31   #179
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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I never call a commercial ship on 16. Always 13.
Why? I understand 13 is an intership working channel but 95% of the time commercial vessels hail on 16 and switch to a working channel. And anyway you are required under the GMDSS to keep watch on CH16 VHF and 2182 kHz (where applicable). So i would always call on 16. Therfore are you saying if you were at sea, more than 100 miles offshore, and you had a mayday you would broadcast on 13??
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Old 30-08-2011, 22:07   #180
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Why? I understand 13 is an intership working channel but 95% of the time commercial vessels hail on 16 and switch to a working channel. And anyway you are required under the GMDSS to keep watch on CH16 VHF and 2182 kHz (where applicable). So i would always call on 16. Therfore are you saying if you were at sea, more than 100 miles offshore, and you had a mayday you would broadcast on 13??
It may vary from region. I monitor 16 and the appropriate VTS channel. I will use 13 if necessary.

Mayday would be 16. or DSC.
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