Question about COLREGS rule 9

[jasbee]

All very fascinating and really it comes down to common sense. Unfortunately that is a commodity in very short supply these days.
I would have done exactly as the powered sail vessel did and come to a stop in speed over the ground - it would have been far too dangerous to make an assumption and turn to port.
We have recently finished sailing in SE Asia and some experiences there would make your hair curl. On one occasion at night in Indonesia we saw a green and a white light and (wrongly) assumed that we were looking at their starboard side and that they would pass us to starboard by quite a margin. However, the red wasn't working and they were headed straight towards us. It was a dark night and it wasn't until we saw the bow wave that we realised the true situation and made a last minute turn to starboard. We averted collision by some 50 metres and could see no-one on watch in their wheel house as they passed at an estimated 10-12 knots.
In Thailand on an approach through a narrow channel to a Krabi marina, local fishing boats always anchored in the channel conducting netting operations. This was also a minefield and several times we were obliged to pass at very close quarters and often received much verbal abuse - which we did not understand! But the meaning was clear.
Incorrect lights and/or the complete lack of lights were always another issue, to the point that we avoided sailing at night.
The bottom line is that if others do not obey the COLREGS, one must maintain a lookout at high alert at ALL times.

[Cadence]

Sounds like a fool that thinks a vessel under sail has the right of way come hell or high water.

[stormalong]

There is nothing wrong with passing starboard to starboard. BUT you need to make your intentions obvious.

If you are constrained by draft you have the stand on vessel and the other boat is the give way vessel. However, both vessels are responsible for a safe pass. The boat under sail's captain was just being a jerk and really does not know the rules of the road.

Remember this phrase: "new reels catch fish so purchase some".

NUC - not under command

RAM - restricted in their ability to maneuver.

CBD - constrained by draft

Fishing vessels engaged in fishing.

Sailing vessels solely under sail.

Power vessels

Seaplanes.

Even though you were a powerboat and he was a sailboat if you were constrained by draft he was the give way vessel. If he was able to do a port to port pass under sail he should not have pressed the matter. Had there been a collision both of you would be a fault. You both recognized the danger. You took some action while he forced the situation. I expect that this would be judged more his fault than yours.

[Empty Pockets]

Assuming they were on inland waters, as they were in a narrow channel, constrained by draft would not apply. On inland waters it is assumed everyone is constrained by draft. Rule 9(a)(i) applies. Converging vessels remain to their starboard side of the channel.

[Juho]

It sounds like the other vessel may have violated 9(b) and 9(d). Both vessels may have violated rules that require early action (to avoid any risk of collision). Rule 9(a) should probably not be read so that you could not move to the other side of the narrow channel. You should stay near the outer limit only as far as it is "safe and practicable". In this case you maybe could have moved to the other side before you got so close to the other vessel that surprising moves were risky. Also the other vessel could have changed course before you ended up in the stand-on give-way situation with some unclarity on if the sailboat vs motorboat rules or the narrow channel rules apply. I understood that full stop would also have been an option for you. I understood that the other vessel could have sailed also in the direction of the narrow channel, on its own side.

I think the best thing that could have happened is that both vessels would have been eager to take early action in this challenging situation (sailing + narrow channel). Being uncertain of which vessel should take action and hoping or assuming that the other vessel would make the necessary moves is not a good situation to be in. Leaving decisions to the last seconds is never a good idea.

[jalmberg]

In retrospect, I should have communicated with him much earlier — first by trying VHF, and then 5 blasts on horn if he didn’t respond on radio.

This is what I would do now, because now seeing a boat sailing In a channel will put me on my guard.

Fool me once, as they say.

Apparently, sailors can be jerks, too.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jalmberg

We were motoring down a narrow channel in our 40’ sailboat the other day (6’ draft) when we met a vessel under sail, going the other way. They were going down the center of the channel, veering toward our side. I move over to starboard as much as I dared, but they were headed right for us. I slowed down as much as I could, while keeping steerage way, but still they came on, gesturing angrily for us to get out of their way. By this time, we were too close for me to turn to port, to cross their bow, and pass them starboard to starboard, so I just had to hold my course.

At the last minute, they altered course to avoid collision, and passed us port to port, while calling us foul names and informing us that sail has priority over power.

...

Was I wrong, or am I obliged to run aground outside a channel just because a sailboat won’t give way?

Questions

• how big was the other boat?
• did they have the option of power (eg an outboard)?
• was the sailboat tacking up the channel, or otherwise needing that course to keep some way on?

To the OP, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment...with the information given, I have the impression that you didn't react til late in the interaction, forcing the other boat to give way, with bad feelings about it.


Some possibilities:

• if they were clearly beating their way up the channel, you could have slowed down in anticipation, so that they could reasonably complete that tack and be out of your way.
• If timing and traffic permit, you could have veered to port passing starboard-to-starboard
• Apparently you didn't plan an action and signal it with your horn, or blast out a warning. Nor did they I assume?

We sail a smaller boat (19ft). Personally, I don't much like tacking up a small channel because of this sort of aggravation, but i don't hate those who do (some because they have to - eg Solings, small dinghies, even 8m and 12m race boats, etc). And I've had more than my share of larger boats running us down, both sail and power, who won't yield when we have right-of-way, even if they have the whole lake to use. So I'm a bit touchy here


So, respectfully, size doesn't make right. With hindsight, how would you handle this differently if you had a do-over? [edit] Ok, you just did.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Sounds like a fool that thinks a vessel under sail has the right of way come hell or high water.

+1

Originally Posted by jalmberg

Apparently, sailors can be jerks, too.

Especially on this point. I've seen too many self-proclaimed "sailors" try to assert "right of way" just to prove they can. Even worse, I've seen them teaching this attitude to young sailing students in small sailboats in busy commercial harbors.

Granted, I run power boats now, but my earliest boating was on sail boats with my grandfather, a life-long sailor. It just really bothers me to see one of these morons giving all sailors a bad name.

A related point is the impression some have that tacking gives them some privilege to cut off another boat without warning. The rules contain no such allowance. Stand-on doesn't mean "Do whatever you want."

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by jalmberg

We were motoring down a narrow channel in our 40’ sailboat the other day (6’ draft) when we met a vessel under sail, going the other way.

Re-reading the inland USA version of the colregs, if you were in the Great Lakes or any of the major USA river systems, it appears to me that downbound power vessels, in a narrow channel with a following current, are the stand-on vessel when encountering upbound vessels, regardless of whether the upbound vessel is power, sail, fishing, etc.

If you were in fact downbound, and in these jursidictions, you would have been the stand-on vessel.

[CaptsWife]

Originally Posted by deblen

IMHO :


The sailboat broke Rule 9d. It crossed a narrow channel..so as to impede...


This forced you into choosing (1) stopping -Rule 8e.
(2) turning to port-a dangerous,last ditch move, that leaves you open to causing a collision.


The COLREGS were not designed to give anyone "rights"
They are simply guidelines. If all vessels followed them perfectly, collisions would be avoided.
In real life,these guidelines are not followed perfectly,for various reasons, & collisions happen.


Len

I think there are many that don't even know what "COLREGS" are.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by stormalong

There is nothing wrong with passing starboard to starboard. BUT you need to make your intentions obvious.

If you are constrained by draft you have the stand on vessel and the other boat is the give way vessel.
...
Even though you were a powerboat and he was a sailboat if you were constrained by draft he was the give way vessel. If he was able to do a port to port pass under sail he should not have pressed the matter. Had there been a collision both of you would be a fault. You both recognized the danger. You took some action while he forced the situation. I expect that this would be judged more his fault than yours.

This is not actually correct. You need to understand the difference between "shall not impede" "stand on / give way".



Specifically Rule 8 f (iii):

A vessel the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the Rules of this Part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.


Also, a "vessel constrained by her draught" is a different thing to "a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway". The former requires the display of the appropriate day shape or lights and still does not become stand on".

They get very little additional latitude. "...if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draught, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28. "

[Locquatious]

A bit off topic but it carries the important point.

We were a small plane flying in haze. When flying, planes traveling east are a one flight level, planes flying west are at another altitude, each separated by 1000 ft.

The controller suddenly came on radio and said to us "Dive now." We did, and a plane passed over our heads at 300 knots. We didn't see him coming. The other plane was not following the regs. "See and avoid" is always best, when you can.

[KiwiKen]

Boats racing following the Racing Rules of Sailing with respect to other boats racing. When interacting with vessles not racing, they have no additional standing whatsoever and are subject to COLREGs just like anyone else.


In overnight yacht racing, the Collision regs apply to the yachts racing as well as situations between racing yachts and other vessels due to the fact that it is not possible to determine in the other yacht is participating in the race or not.


As far as sailing dinghies racing in a busy seaway or channel it is irrespensible of the race organisers to set a course that could cause conflict between racers and commercial and other legitimate users of the channel.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Questions
...

• was the sailboat tacking up the channel, or otherwise needing that course to keep some way on?

...

• if they were clearly beating their way up the channel, you could have slowed down in anticipation, so that they could reasonably complete that tack and be out of your way.b

From Post #5: "There was nothing preventing the other boat from keeping from the correct side of the channel. They were on a broad reach. As I said, they eventually altered course to avoid collision."

And I've had more than my share of larger boats running us down, both sail and power, who won't yield when we have right-of-way

Oh dear, that phrase again

There is no such thing as "yield" or "right of way" or any other right under COLREGs ( just one specific "right of way" situation under the US Inland Rules)

[GrowleyMonster]

Unfortunately a lot of yachties know only enough of the rules to make them more of a menace to other vessels, rather than enough to make being on the water safer. I can't say how many times as a watchstander on a ship's bridge I heard a sailboat cursing us in a most irritating manner for not giving way to them in a traffic separation scheme or a clearly marked harbor entrance channel. Selective knowledge is a dangerous thing.

But in your case, and in fact in all cases, where the stand on vessel sees that the give way vessel is not taking appropriate action to avoid collision, he must do whatever is needed to prevent collision. So no matter what, yes, you are at fault. BOTH vessels are responsible for avoiding collision. But the other guy was an ignorant bozo and will cause a collision sooner or later.



Sometimes the only thing to do is turn 180 and make him chase you if he insists on having a collision.



Another thing... knowing your depths outside the marked channel may allow you do go outside without grounding. MOST marked channels used by commercial shipping have LOTS of water outside the bouys for small craft. The other guy was probably too much of an idiot to even consider going outside the channel, so you would probably have been safe from this menace on the water.


One thing though, about departing from the rules when collision is imminent. We call this "the dance of death". You expect to see a red to red passage and he is showing you green. At the last minute you decide the other vessel is not acting appropriately but that you can turn to port and avoid him. At the same time he sees that he needs to turn to starboard to avoid collision. So you both turn into each other! Then you see the error of your decision and turn hard to starboard just as he sees crazy you, turning the wrong way and he turns to port to avoid you. Next thing you know it is crunchy time. If you would have simply turned hard to starboard and either steadied up going the other way, or continued in a full round turn, you would not have collided.


But one more thing. Passing agreement. Did you attempt to communicate with the other guy in any way, whether by whistle or VHF? Just askin.



And you know what? I bet Mr Sailing Vessel had his engine running, and so was not a sailing vessel at all, under the rules, but thought that he was because his sails were up. I have had that argument more than once.