Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-12-2012, 08:09   #76
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Marathon Fl.
Boat: Columbia 45 / Iroquois 30
Posts: 113
Images: 3
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

You could do the chamber insert for a flare gun. Basically takes a metal flare gun, puts an insert in the chamber and go. Youre just carrying a flare gun. The insert can be anywhere else and looks like an engine part.



there are other improvised weapons that are very effective and technically not weapons. You can do serious damage with a scuba tank and a paintball gun with solid 40 cal BBs. or Pellets.

Also as stated above a weapon that is disassembled isnt a weapon. You should just know how to re-assemble in the dark and disassemble quickly. There could be laws against "parts" but in the US I dont know of any. My brother built an AR-15 from parts that he bought from online dealers not as much to get around any gun laws since there are no restrictions in his state. But to see if he could do it.
__________________

__________________
sushirama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 08:31   #77
Registered User
 
Zanshin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 57
Posts: 1,621
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

sushirama - certain "parts" are indeed classified and restricted. A disassembled firearm is classified as a weapon in certain states in certain conditions. The receiver on an AR-15 is not freely available in most states. Converting a flare gun to fire a shotgun shell as described in the linked video is dangerous.
I was a Class III dealer, firarms instructor and ballistician (I still own a munitions company), but why believe me.
__________________

__________________
-Zanshin (SV Zanshin)
Zanshin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 08:45   #78
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Marathon Fl.
Boat: Columbia 45 / Iroquois 30
Posts: 113
Images: 3
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

Well of course its dangerous. Never said these were every day carry. But if youre being boarded and need something less dangerous than the intended results of the boarders itll do in a pinch. Also I dont live in "most" or "certain" states. To be helpful you could find a list of those states and share. So you are correct. Im just giving options.

also as for the improvised weapons. picture this with a scuba tank.

Automatic BB Gun

then replace the bb reservior with a large bottle of franks hot sauce. or gasoline. or attached to a sh$t tank.
__________________
sushirama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 08:55   #79
Registered User
 
Zanshin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 57
Posts: 1,621
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

I don't think you realize how dangerous the flare conversion can be. If it goes awry the hand holding the flare will most likely still be attached to the rest of the body but won't be too mobile - ever again. The breech of the flare might remain attached to the frame, but could just as well develop an overwhelming affection for the shooter's face. I have a friend with a facial scar from a "KB" (what we call a "Kaboom") on a 9mm handgun where the slide hit him. Note that a 9mm round has only 5-6 grains of powder. A 12 gauge has 20 grains, and around 10,000 PSI are generated.

p.s. I just took a look at the load used in flares. They use black powder instead of smokeless powder; which generates a very different deflagration rate, i.e. the pressure buildup is much more of a curve than seen with smokeless powder as used in shotshells. This means that given the same projectile weight the chamber pressures are significantly lower with black powder than with smokeless.
__________________
-Zanshin (SV Zanshin)
Zanshin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 08:58   #80
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

sushirama, who are you trying to convince. If you're in the US, then just carry your firearm of choice. But these half baked ideas you suggest, will just get you arrested in other countries

Most countries , parts of a firearm are themselves considered firearms, ie barrels, stock , magazines, Most countries restrict the holding of ammunition to the license holder and hence subject them to the same restrictions. In the case above, you would be guilty of holding illegal ammunition etc. Furthermore many countries forbid altering a firearm and in particular there are very heavy penalties for modifying something that may not be classed as a firearm into a firearm. And in many countries a flare pistol has to be licensed as a firearm or a derivative of a firearm.

Again, whats the point, its no more then suggesting not declaring a proper firearm and if its just confined to the US, whats the point.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 09:07   #81
Registered User
 
ElGatoGordo's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kemah, TX
Boat: Jim Michalak designed 25' Caprice and Self Design 32' Shantymaran
Posts: 711
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

Congrats to the forum for a reasonably friendly gun thread!!!

An annotated list of states laws related directly to boats would be interesting. Don't assume the same laws apply to your boat as your car or house. Only last year Texas added boats to the law allowing unlicensed concealed carry in your home and car. Prior to that the law was silent on the subject of watercraft and I suspect one could have been charged with illegal possession if one had a concealed gun on board.
__________________
ElGatoGordo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 10:21   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Marathon Fl.
Boat: Columbia 45 / Iroquois 30
Posts: 113
Images: 3
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

I do understand fully the dangers of using a flare gun for its non-intended purpose. Id just shoot the flares. But there may come a time where you need to improvise and Im giving options. Those options without using guns(and parts) and ammo may be illegal everywhere. And I would think in the moment you need to create this you're not really concerned about what local law enforcement thinks about your plan. Or you may be the type that will just say "OMG I am creating a weapon that could be forbidden by local govt, ill just give up and let them kill me, r@pe my wife and eat my dog." and break out the lube. (use the John Stewart imitating Joe Lieberman voice for that quote)

I know that I have a scuba tank, a valve, couple hundred chopsticks and some gas pipe on my boat. With that I can make some pretty devious things if needed.

You come in here and condemn, but dont provide an alternative?

You dont carry a gun on your boat outside the US.
Youre in danger of being boarded and possibly killed.
You have about 5 minutes.
Remember I am starting from half baked, youre starting from scratch.

And do you have a list of those "most countries" specifics? I really hate when people use that generality and its really only like 7 or 15 out of the 261. Should I write a book or do a web page for clarification? Id like to work a list on what you can get away with to defend your self anywhere. Can we start with short sharp sticks and medium sized rocks and work our way out? Where are t-shirt launchers and propane illegal to use together? At what point is a spoon a weapon? Is coffee mate powder illegal anywhere? (though they changed the formula so it doesnt explode anymore) How about an Anarchist Cook Book for Boaters? oooh I may work on that.

I'm on the you dont need to carry guns if you know your options bandwagon.

Youre on the dont carry guns and I dont have any options for you cause Im too busy looking up muzzle velocities of flare guns that we already know are dangerous for you skateboard.

We know its not safe, its a given, what are your options?
__________________
sushirama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 13:32   #83
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by sushirama
I do understand fully the dangers of using a flare gun for its non-intended purpose. Id just shoot the flares. But there may come a time where you need to improvise and Im giving options. Those options without using guns(and parts) and ammo may be illegal everywhere. And I would think in the moment you need to create this you're not really concerned about what local law enforcement thinks about your plan. Or you may be the type that will just say "OMG I am creating a weapon that could be forbidden by local govt, ill just give up and let them kill me, r@pe my wife and eat my dog." and break out the lube. (use the John Stewart imitating Joe Lieberman voice for that quote)
If you don't care about local law enforcement , you don't care so why not conceal a proper firearm , that's why I say why bother. If on the other hand you don't want illegal ammunition, then this sort of thing is useless. What I meant was either you don't care and hence its useless compared to a proper firearm, or you do and it's illegal and therefore pointless

Quote:
I know that I have a scuba tank, a valve, couple hundred chopsticks and some gas pipe on my boat. With that I can make some pretty devious things if needed.
You or more likely others, will just blow up their own arses with those sort of things, really

Quote:
You come in here and condemn, but dont provide an alternative?

You dont carry a gun on your boat outside the US.
Youre in danger of being boarded and possibly killed.
You have about 5 minutes.
Remember I am starting from half baked, youre starting from scratch.
Effective self defence on a boat is a very tricky business , outside the US , carrying firearms is awkward, requires you to declare and usually surrender such weapons. Additionally most ban semi autos and handguns outright.

In practice on a boat you are likely to be caught unawares. Either you are asleep or you invite people on board who turn out to be not what you think they are. Usually you are not pre-warned and typically do not have time to arm yourself or create some of your half assed defensive weapons. ( this is based on the reports I've read of people boarded). Equally mistakingly shooting a badly dressed LEO , with an illegal firearm is going to put you in a world of pain.

Their is in fact no easy answer. The best I can offer is don't go to places where such crimes take place with any frequency. ( based on some people's armaments , this includes all coastal states of the US)


Quote:
And do you have a list of those "most countries" specifics? I really hate when people use that generality and its really only like 7 or 15 out of the 261. Should I write a book or do a web page for clarification? Id like to work a list on what you can get away with to defend your self anywhere. Can we start with short sharp sticks and medium sized rocks and work our way out? Where are t-shirt launchers and propane illegal to use together? At what point is a spoon a weapon? Is coffee mate powder illegal anywhere? (though they changed the formula so it doesnt explode anymore) How about an Anarchist Cook Book for Boaters? oooh I may work on that.
A perusal of many countries that are typical cruising destinations ( mexico, carribean, Med, Europe etc) will show you

(A) you must at least declare and optionally secure your firearms
(B) many will detain the firearm for as long as you stay
(C) there are outright bans in some countries ( eg Mexico )
(D) even the US has very very stringent laws for non citizens arriving on boats with firearms
(E) Hand guns and semi autos are very difficult to hold onto

Quote:

I'm on the you dont need to carry guns if you know your options bandwagon.
.
Youre on the dont carry guns and I dont have any options for you cause Im too busy looking up muzzle velocities of flare guns that we already know are dangerous for you skateboard.

We know its not safe, its a given, what are your options?
Firstly, for the vast majority of cruisers cruising through normal cruising grounds or around the coasts ( and I'd even include the US) It is a safe place , that's a given , because its demonstrably true. Therefor there is no need for either a proper lethal defensive weapon or more so, some half assed unsafe DIY job.

Personal safety is a fairly unique thing. I exercise it by avoiding trouble spots and troublesome People. It seems to work well, after 30 years of sailing I've never had any hassle.

After that, actually, I follow the advice of my brother in law , who is an armed response policeman . Do not antagonise your potential assailant He's much more triggered fingered then you are. , ie yes in some cases all you can you Is break out the lube" as you put it. Because the alternative is you'll never take the cap of a bottle again.

What amuses me is why people want to concoct half assed measures, equally illegal, yet ineffective. I target shoot I own handguns, semi autos and several shotguns. If I wanted to take a good , relatively easy to declare protection, I'd bring my mossberg pump. Few jurisdictions are problematic for shotguns , ammo is widely available and its lethal at close range without needing too much accuracy. In my country I can quite easily modify my firearms license to carry this on my yacht
BUT. Why bother, its still a hassle ( I know , I've delivered boats with firearms aboard ) and its very unlikely in an emergency I can get the mossberg out of hiding , load it and make ready.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 13:53   #84
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Marathon Fl.
Boat: Columbia 45 / Iroquois 30
Posts: 113
Images: 3
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

I love you man.
__________________
sushirama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 14:06   #85
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by sushirama
I love you man.
A good insight ,most do .......lol

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 17:59   #86
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

Am not sure where the 5 minute warning comes from , and even if that the case gonna need to be armed and ready 24/7. To my mind that would kinda take the fun out of any vacation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sushirama View Post
Or you may be the type that will just say "OMG I am creating a weapon that could be forbidden by local govt, ill just give up and let them kill me, r@pe my wife and eat my dog." and break out the lube. (use the John Stewart imitating Joe Lieberman voice for that quote)
The thing to remember if you get yerself killed in the usual wife and dog scenario is that 10 minutes after your demise the dog will be happily wagging it's tail at whoever is holding the tin opener. and sooner or later your widow will be doing the same........
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 18:07   #87
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
Am not sure where the 5 minute warning comes from , and even if that the case gonna need to be armed and ready 24/7. To my mind that would kinda take the fun out of any vacation.

The thing to remember if you get yerself killed in the usual wife and dog scenario is that 10 minutes after your demise the dog will be happily wagging it's tail at whoever is holding the tin opener. and sooner or later your widow will be doing the same........
I love this mans outlook on life. Though I think the dog might hold out a little longer. !!
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 18:27   #88
Registered User
 
Captivy's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ontario
Boat: Gozzard 31
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I love this mans outlook on life. Though I think the dog might hold out a little longer. !!
You've never owned a Lab!
__________________
Captivy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2012, 19:31   #89
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captivy

You've never owned a Lab!
Agn now a lab, yes owned three , they switch allegiance for a scratch behind the ear. Mine deserted me for the travelling library van driver everytime he came around !!

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2013, 12:48   #90
Junior Cruiser
 
PhoenixRising's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Kemah, TX
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40 DS
Posts: 6
Re: Protocol When Cruising With Guns

I agree with an earlier statement that handguns are a tool only for killing people (12 years as a Marine grunt taught me that) and it seems an unnecessary hassell to try and take them cruising. However, with the persistent growth of piracy it seems as though SOME for of protection is sensible, and that a simple shot gun provides a reasonable solution. I also know that certain models are manufactured of corrosion resistant materials specifically for use in a marine environment. I would be content to hand over my weapon to the authorities while in NZ or OZ, but there a hell of a lot of unstable places that an American has to pass through to get there. So, does a simple pump-action shotgun sound reasonable? I would appreciate the input.
__________________

__________________
PhoenixRising is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Guns

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Possible Insight Into Why Americans Want to Carry Guns ssullivan Health, Safety & Related Gear 57 27-03-2007 13:25
GUNS eskfreedom Health, Safety & Related Gear 63 20-06-2006 19:09
Guns again Alan Wheeler Health, Safety & Related Gear 5 23-11-2004 02:58



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.