Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

[transmitterdan]

I know a couple captains that are certifiable...but that's for another thread.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Dunno why... In my experience the only time you will see that in the bridge is when they are looking at some naked chicks on the beach ...

In this situation, there could be "naked" bears but no chicks. This was in narrow waters approaching the exit from Tracy Arm. In addition to the previously-shown deck officers with binoculars, there was a "midshipman" also looking forward. They are responsible for the safety of nearly 5000 passengers and crew onboard.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Although I know there are lots of captains out there who should be certified I think the word you are looking for is certificated.

The fact that a word is used popularly with a derived meaning does not take away its first and more correct meaning:

certified: Authoritatively or officially attested or confirmed as being genuine or true as represented, or as complying or meeting specified requirements or standards.

Read more: What is certified? definition and meaning

certified: having or proved by a certificate.

Certified | Define Certified at Dictionary.com

certified : To guarantee as meeting a standard; To issue a license or certificate to.

certified - definition of certified by The Free Dictionary

[FamilyVan]

Certified vs certificates has always baffled me. I know Canadian Regs all refer to certificated, I have tried in the past to understand the difference, it appears to be a very subtle difference.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Polux]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

Certified vs certificates has always baffled me. I know Canadian Regs all refer to certificated, I have tried in the past to understand the difference, it appears to be a very subtle difference.

It seems to me that a professional Captain is certified and has a certificate that attest that. Certificate is the document and certification is the process that leads to be certified. Certificated means that he holds a certificate.

[american]

Here's an update to the story with quote from the guy driving North Star (the dive boat):

Only solution for Phuket boat collision appears to be court

Here's what he had to say about the incident:

Dave McGuire - in charge of the North Star at the time of the incident – posted on his Facebook:"story so far...........the sail boat hit North Star. We have 2 vids1 from instructor and one from guest, the sail boat captain says he was on (auto) pilot and the video agrees everyone was fishing at the stern???,nobody sailing the SAIL boat??? North Star had put all gears in reverse and had stopped when the sailboat HIT North Star!!! Come on the local papers check both sides of the story before you go to print. 2 vids folks watch this space."

And there's this:

Meanwhile, a representative of Aqua Center Thailand who declined to give her name, denied to The Phuket News that North Star smashed into Starship.

She said, “Starship was in North Star̕s way. We warned them and they should have got out of the way.

“We did not smash into them. If we smashed into them they would not be alive because our boat is bigger than their boat. It was just a bump.

“Before the boats collided North Star turned back but Starship still came towards us until the boats collided.

“We have met at the police station already, and we believe it is not our fault. If they want money for damages then we will go to court,” she said.

Still no sign of the videos. Will update when/if that makes an appearance.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by american

Here's an update to the story with quote from the guy driving North Star (the dive boat):

Only solution for Phuket boat collision appears to be court

Here's what he had to say about the incident:

And there's this:

Still no sign of the videos. Will update when/if that makes an appearance.

And the two descriptions made be the motorboat side are contradictory, on one they say that they did mot smashed on the sailboat, just a bump, on the other they say that it was the sailboat that hit the motorboat

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Polux

The fact that a word is used popularly with a derived meaning does not take away its first and more correct meaning:

certified: Authoritatively or officially attested or confirmed as being genuine or true as represented, or as complying or meeting specified requirements or standards.

Read more: What is certified? definition and meaning

certified: having or proved by a certificate.

Certified | Define Certified at Dictionary.com

certified : To guarantee as meeting a standard; To issue a license or certificate to.

certified - definition of certified by The Free Dictionary

'Certificated' is what is in common usage when refering to seafaring folks as in 'Certificated Master' I guess its so as not to cause confusion with the word 'Certified' which normally refers to nutters....

No such confusion with the words 'Pedant' or 'Pedantic'.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Polux

And the two descriptions made be the motorboat side are contradictory, on one they say that they did mot smashed on the sailboat, just a bump, on the other they say that it was the sailboat that hit the motorboat

Please refer my last

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by markpierce

That made me breath easier:

Shouldn't somebody be looking at all them fancy instruments? You know the ARPA, the AIS, the ECDIS, and all that other fancy stuff considered vital for the safe navigation of small yachts, let alone big passo ferrys?

Bears my left foot... those blokes are looking for beaver ...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

...'Certified' which normally refers to nutters....

No such confusion with the words 'Pedant' or 'Pedantic'.

You can be a certified Captain or a certified Mad. Those are just two different certifications even if a mad does not hold a certificate.

Regarding being pedantic, you are very nice, as usual. You should be a very agreeable guy.

I had used the word certified in first place because I was replying to a merchant professional sailor that had used that same word to describe a certificated official.

I don't find knowledge pedantic and I like linguistics. Some more about the meaning of certified and certificated:

"Do they mean the same ? The dictionary definitions for both words overlap.
...In use, however, certificated seems to belong to the educational sphere, while certified is the word used to describe standards and qualifications in other occupations and industries.
Until recently, I’ve thought of certificated as chiefly British usage, but the term occurs very frequently now in the U.S. educational context."

“Certified” and “Certificated”

More information here from the guys that care about language:

Certificated vs Certified - WordReference Forums

[Rustic Charm]

E this 'discussion' around certificates and certified, isn't going to turn into a similar 100 page marathon like the Climate change (North passage) thread is it

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

E this 'discussion' around certificates and certified, isn't going to turn into a similar 100 page marathon like the Climate change (North passage) thread is it

Nope... they never achieved credible 'thread drift' in that one....

edited... oops ... sorry ... they achieved thread drift maximus very early on..... lost in the dawns of time but 180* thread drift...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Polux

You can be a certified Captain or a certified Mad. Those are just two different certifications even if a mad does not hold a certificate.

Regarding being pedantic, you are very nice, as usual. You should be a very agreeable guy.

I had used the word certified in first place because I was replying to a merchant professional sailor that had used that same word to describe a certificated official.

I don't find knowledge pedantic and I like linguistics. Some more about the meaning of certified and certificated:

"Do they mean the same ? The dictionary definitions for both words overlap.
...In use, however, certificated seems to belong to the educational sphere, while certified is the word used to describe standards and qualifications in other occupations and industries.
Until recently, I’ve thought of certificated as chiefly British usage, but the term occurs very frequently now in the U.S. educational context."

“Certified” and “Certificated”

More information here from the guys that care about language:

Certificated vs Certified - WordReference Forums

I tend to be more interested in language as she is spoke rather than what internet academics have to say about correct usage.

I do know that if, on a British ship , anytime in the last 50 plus years you used the term 'certified officer' you would be an object of ridicule...
Likewise if ,for instance, you were sailing as third mate ( under the law british ships didn't have 'officers' they had 'mates' which is why the qualifications were Second Mate, Mate, and Master ) without a second mate's 'ticket' you were on all official paperwork 'Uncertificated Third Mate'.

I have over the last decade or so tried to learn Spanish, 12 years on habla poco muy mal español,habla español supermercado, español armada, nada mas.

I have got to where I am ( not very far) by listening to people .. not reading books or dictionaries such as '500 Irregular Spanish Verbs' or its companion volume 'Another 500 Irregular Spanish Verbs'.... but by listening to people.

Two little stories... walking back to my boat one day many years back... I sez to someone ( australian) going the other way 'I have my Zarpe for tomorrow'.
They sez... 'gizzalook'..
They have a look ' The grammar in that bit's not right...'.
Sez I 'Go tell the girl in the office... she wrote it...'

Later with a bit of book learning under my belt .. way down south... we invited some fishermen aboard... lucky I wasn't at the head of the 'meet and greet' line as I picked up that there was a lot of 'Mucho Gusto' going down.... I was all set to use 'encantada' on these blokes....

A bit of education is a dangerous thing....

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by markpierce

In the San Francisco Estuary, dealing with ships is easy. They are the stand-on vessels because of restricted waters. They presume you'll maneuver to avoid collision.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Umm, that's not actually right. Vessels under 20 meters and sailing vessels are not allowed to "impede" vessels navigating in narrow channels who can safely navigate only in the channel. Rule 9. That does NOT make them the stand-on vessel.

This is actually another really excellent illustration of how standing-on is not anything like right of way. You are obligated by Rule 9 to "not impede" ships in channels, but at the very same time (!) you could be obligated to stand-on, if you get into a risk of collision situation with them. It's pretty hard to stand on, and not impede, at the same time, but that's what the rules say -- so far from any kind of right of way, is standing-on.


Practically speaking, in places like this, collision avoidance is easy. Just stay the **** out of the channels, and cross them only when the coast is clear. Don't interfere with ships. If you're outside the channel where ships can't go at all, there's zero risk of of collision, and so the steering & sailing rules never come into force at all. Nobody stands on, and nobody gives way. This is an excellent situation.

I learned to sail in waters with a lot of commercial traffic that was restricted to the deep water channels, or traffic separation schemes. The Zeeland estuaries for example. And yes, the instructors basically told us to treat the big ships as if they were trains.
I spend a week on a freighter last summer. I stil remember leaving Cork in the middle of a fleet of local yachts getting ready to race. The skipper indeed mostly ignored them. Some were so close you couldn't see them unless you walked all the way out on the wing, in which case you couldn't see the ones on the other side... But those sailors knew their waters, and they know "not to impede". It was the Brittany Ferrry in front of him that worried the skipper...

Originally Posted by Polux

I think that is why some Ship Captains prefer to filter AIS B signals on high traffic zones. That can induce a false sense of security since in what regards B signals the boats that have them are still a minority. The eyes and the radar are still the main tolls for a pilot to avoid collisions. AIS is a great help but does not substitute radar that effectively show all the boats around.

Originally Posted by Polux

He is not talking about shutting off the alarm but about shutting off AIS B signals because they make the alarm go on and on.

You can filter the AIS B signals, but you cannot "shut them off", as AIS uses the same channels as AIS A. In networking terms: AIS A and B are the same on the physical and link layer. It's on the application layer that they differ.

Most ships have a stand alone AIS - A transponder. I suspect that the Furuno FA-150 is very common. It was what the Samskip Express had, the ship I spend a week on last summer.
This receiver does not filter AIS B targets, but you can indeed shut off the alarms. This shuts off all alarms. When leaving a crowded hardor big ships indeed do that, as an alarm that goes on continuously is useless.
The output of the AIS transponder then gets fed in to the ECDIS system. This ship had one from TRANSAS. You can indeed filter all kinds of things on it. But then again, it comes down to how you use it.

But if a CPA alarm is set. it is set for both Class A and Class B targets.

I had a few interesting talks with the skipper on what he thought sailboats in the channel should do to minimise risk of collision. Basically he said that you should get an AIS transponder. The big guys will see you.

Originally Posted by Polux

The problem is that most boats you find out there do not have AIS, meaning most recreational sailboats and mostly most fishingboats even if with considerable size.

I though that fishing boats now had to have AIS as well, even in Spain and Portugal?