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Old 16-04-2015, 08:58   #241
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Dockhead, yes I did simplify, but how many of us have 20-meter-plus vessels?
Yes, but that wasn't my point -- it was that the ships in your photos, although you are required to "not impede" them, are not necessarily the stand-on vessels in a crossing situation.
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Old 16-04-2015, 09:04   #242
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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I know that trick, and frowned on or not, I think it's useful

But we're not talking about bearings -- we're talking about aspect -- his heading relative to your position. A different thing.
Right, I should have read more carefully. I can't think of any way to get a decent estimation of Aspect without a plotting Sheet.

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Old 16-04-2015, 11:20   #243
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Hi Polux

I did have a couple of Smileys tagged on to my post.
Yep, I know exactly what it takes to get a Master Mariners Foreign Going Certificate of Competency.
I first went to sea at the age of 16, and had my Masters ticket by the time I was 25, and have been sailing as a ships captain for the past 26 years.

But my point was, I would never assume that a watchkeeper on another ship was fully competent. I have seen dreadful standards at sea.
Bear in mind, the Captain of the ship might have a good understanding of the Colregs, but what about the Third Mate?
,,,,,
Hi Nigel,

I guess you misread my post. What I said was:

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..
Well, regarding main tools I guess that as important as the eyes and the Radar is knowledge and experience and we can assume that a ship's captain has a lot more then the regular yacht skipper.
The only thing assumed was knowledge (that comes from all the mandatory courses he has to take) and experience that comes from the many hours at sea to reach a Captain rank.

Competence was not assumed. In any profession, even the ones that required highly qualified operators, like ship captain, there are a very small percentage of incompetents, nut cases and everybody, even the more competent can make mistakes. I did not assume that a ship Captain is always competent.

However the same can be said regarding Yacht captains in what concerns competence, nut cases and mistakes and given their not mandatory or lesser qualification and their most probable lesser sea experience (most are not professional) the odds are that the chances of having a ship with a more competent captain (in what regards knowledge of colregs and effective collision avoidance tactics) is much bigger than the odds of having a Yacht with a more competent captain. That was just what I was saying.

Nothing regarding all this is an absolute, it could be the opposite but the odds of that are much smaller.

I am a bit curious about what you have said regarding a watchkeeper. My understanding is that a watchkeeper can be a lower rank official but when in cases he has any doubts he should call the Captain or the one below (don't know the name in English). I am not correct?
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Old 16-04-2015, 11:32   #244
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Right, I should have read more carefully. I can't think of any way to get a decent estimation of Aspect without a plotting Sheet.
In which case, you need to already know the answer to the question you're trying to solve.
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Old 16-04-2015, 18:48   #245
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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I am a bit curious about what you have said regarding a watchkeeper. My understanding is that a watchkeeper can be a lower rank official but when in cases he has any doubts he should call the Captain or the one below (don't know the name in English). I am not correct?
It doesn't matter if you are correct or not, I think that was exactly nigels point. You are assuming all ships navigate like they are supposed to. Most do but some don't, that's a dangerous assumption to make. Rule 7 c.
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Old 17-04-2015, 00:54   #246
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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It doesn't matter if you are correct or not, I think that was exactly nigels point. You are assuming all ships navigate like they are supposed to. Most do but some don't, that's a dangerous assumption to make. Rule 7 c.
Indeed. Rules, procedures, etc., are good; qualifications are sometimes necessary, but none of these things are a panacea. And so you just can't assume anything.

With qualifications -- this is just useless bureaucracy if it's done at the level of the ICC. Just look at the dumbed-down materials published by some states and cited earlier in this thread -- is this the knowledge they consider adequate? This is far less than the ICC, and worse than useless, IMHO.
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Old 17-04-2015, 02:28   #247
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

Offshore...
The third mate on watch will probably be on his first trip with a 'ticket' and as keen as mustard but with limited experience.
The mate on the morning 4 to 8 will be scratching his nuts - while the lookout is calling the cook - and wondering why he didn't take his mother's advice and become a merchant banker in Athens.
Lets not even think about the graveyard watch...

To pass any fancy pancy ticket .. from 2nd mates to master... you only have to show the minimum knowledge required.

Looking back.. my skill set was pretty basic when I passed master's.
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Old 17-04-2015, 02:34   #248
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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That made me breath easier:



Dunno why... In my experience the only time you will see that in the bridge is when they are looking at some naked chicks on the beach....

True story... outward down the Melbourne River we used to pass 'Head Job Alley' ... a bit of scrub and stuff by the river bank on the port side opposite Swanson Dock ( for them as know the area)..... me oh my oh ... the things you used to see on a sunny afternoon.....
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Old 17-04-2015, 02:47   #249
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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I am a bit curious about what you have said regarding a watchkeeper. My understanding is that a watchkeeper can be a lower rank official but when in cases he has any doubts he should call the Captain or the one below (don't know the name in English). I am not correct?

Polux

Just picking up on this part of your post.
Yes, of course, a junior officer should call the Captain if he is in doubt, most Captains will have this in their Standing Orders and Night Orders.

If you take the time to read the report I linked to, you will see that the watch keeping mate failed to call anyone even after running down a tug and tow.

When I (and El Pinguino) did our tickets, it was a 4 year apprenticeship required before sitting for the Second Mates ticket.
Nowadays, cadets now sit their Second Mates ticket after a two year cadetship, and it aint because todays youngsters are brighter than we were, it's down to a shortage of watchkeeping officers, after ship owners stopped investing in training back in the 80's and 90's.

So, right from the start, there is a distinct lack of experience for the Junior watchkeeper.

Even my own Standing Owners included the following

"Never assume that the watch keeper on the other ship is actually keeping a watch or knows the correct action to take"
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Old 17-04-2015, 03:12   #250
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

My first watch as 3/0 by myself... ( I had spent quite a time as uncert 4/0 however ....but....)
Joined in Rotterdam... next port Las palmas... first watch... dropped pilot at about 1800....arrived on watch at 2000 ... old man sed 'ok all yours ' and vanished until 2300 by which time we were abeam Margate or somewhere westish... character building.
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Old 17-04-2015, 05:05   #251
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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It doesn't matter if you are correct or not, I think that was exactly nigels point. You are assuming all ships navigate like they are supposed to. Most do but some don't, that's a dangerous assumption to make. Rule 7 c.
Again, I never assumed ships are always sailed properly neither that all Captains are competent or that they don't make mistakes. The only assumption I made was that the odds are bigger regarding a Ship Captain to be more Knowledgeable and experienced then a yacht captain.
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Old 17-04-2015, 10:35   #252
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

True storey here.

My first watches as third officer I think we're pretty good because I had been wheelsman/quartermaster on that same ship for approximately the 5 years previous (I didn't do the cadet thing I came up through "the hawse pipe" as the saying goes).

About 6 months later we got a new cadet style 3/o who the outfit had invested heavily in. The situation necessitated putting me back down to wheelsman and the new mate as mate. The captain didn't like the situation, but contrary to common belief the Captain doesn't always get his way, and my permanent position on that ship was and always had been wheelsman, I was "acting 3rd mate" only.

What the Captain did do, was put me on the midnight-eight with the new officer so I could keep an eye on him and so the creward could sleep easy knowing there was somebody they could trust on the bridge.

Our night orders were to dog it at about 2 or 3 knots so we could make a particularly challenging channel for first light. I was sitting in the wheelsmans chair, feet up staining out the window, confident that we were moving slowly enough that I would easily see any problems without resorting to electronics (I kind of hate electronic navigation, too long staining out the window as a wheelsman I guess).

It started raining and I made a casual comment about the rain. The mate argued that it wasn't raining we talked about it for a few minutes and the mate never removed his head from the RADAR and continued to insist that it waunt raining because he could see no rain clouds on the RADAR.

That's the kind of skill level you can expect from some certified mariners.

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Old 17-04-2015, 12:50   #253
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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True storey here.

My first watches as third officer I think we're pretty good because I had been wheelsman/quartermaster on that same ship for approximately the 5 years previous (I didn't do the cadet thing I came up through "the hawse pipe" as the saying goes).

About 6 months later we got a new cadet style 3/o who the outfit had invested heavily in. The situation necessitated putting me back down to wheelsman and the new mate as mate. The captain didn't like the situation, but contrary to common belief the Captain doesn't always get his way, and my permanent position on that ship was and always had been wheelsman, I was "acting 3rd mate" only.

What the Captain did do, was put me on the midnight-eight with the new officer so I could keep an eye on him and so the creward could sleep easy knowing there was somebody they could trust on the bridge.

Our night orders were to dog it at about 2 or 3 knots so we could make a particularly challenging channel for first light. I was sitting in the wheelsmans chair, feet up staining out the window, confident that we were moving slowly enough that I would easily see any problems without resorting to electronics (I kind of hate electronic navigation, too long staining out the window as a wheelsman I guess).

It started raining and I made a casual comment about the rain. The mate argued that it wasn't raining we talked about it for a few minutes and the mate never removed his head from the RADAR and continued to insist that it waunt raining because he could see no rain clouds on the RADAR.

That's the kind of skill level you can expect from some certified mariners.
..
Yes but the point there regarding the Captain seems to me: Great captain covering all the bases and not trusting a watch only to a new inexperienced official...till he gets more experience.... and that Captain is a certified one, probably with lots of experience
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Old 17-04-2015, 12:51   #254
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Yes but the point there regarding the Captain seems to me: Great captain covering all the bases and not trusting a watch only to a new inexperienced official...till he gets more experience.... and that Captain is a certified one, probably with lots of experience
You are absolutely correct, in fact I had my mate's job back within a week.

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Old 17-04-2015, 12:57   #255
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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and that Captain is a certified one, probably with lots of experience
Although I know there are lots of captains out there who should be certified I think the word you are looking for is certificated.
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