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Old 15-04-2015, 16:12   #226
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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...Costa Concordia...
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Old 15-04-2015, 16:16   #227
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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ROFLMAO... you should spend more time in the English Channel.. or the Straits of Gibraltar..
So you are other that find that the typical Yacht Captains are as competent as a the typical ship Captains? Makes sense since you Britts find that a mandatory training and formation is not needed for a Yacht captain. Maybe you find too that a Ship Captain does not also need any training or formation?

I have made plenty times Gibraltar and Messina straights. Last time on the Messina straight there was a sailing boat sailing on the straight tacking from side to side, crossing all shipping lanes at 30ļ angles. Yacht Captains know that ships should always kept away from sailing boats.
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Old 15-04-2015, 16:54   #228
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Are you not an apologist of the no need of any licence for Captains of recreational boats? (sorry if I am mistaken). If so how can you have the opinion that most boaters don't know the "COLREGS let alone understand them" and oppose a mandatory licence that implicates an examination that assures that to pass it one has to knows COLREGS?
Polex, you have misinterpreted my sarcasm.

In Australia the recreational boat licence is a short examination (perhaps 1/2 hour with little reference to COLERGS) when the coxswains and masters tickets require extensive courses and both written and oral examination by experienced mariners.

I believe the majority of recreational boaters driving their small runabouts (majority of boats in Australia would be outboard powered motorboats not sailboats) don't know what the COLERGS are. I will stick with my statement as being reasonable here in Australia. There is a fair likehood that recreational sailors with sailboats may have greater knowledge through affiliation with yachtclubs and courses provided by clubs.
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Old 15-04-2015, 17:09   #229
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

That made me breath easier:





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Old 15-04-2015, 17:10   #230
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Polex, you have misinterpreted my sarcasm.

In Australia the recreational boat licence is a short examination (perhaps 1/2 hour with little reference to COLERGS) when the coxswains and masters tickets require extensive courses and both written and oral examination by experienced mariners.

I believe the majority of recreational boaters driving their small runabouts (majority of boats in Australia would be outboard powered motorboats not sailboats) don't know what the COLERGS are. I will stick with my statement as being reasonable here in Australia. There is a fair likehood that recreational sailors with sailboats may have greater knowledge through affiliation with yachtclubs and courses provided by clubs.
I would agree with this.

I'm more conscious of the COLREGS than perhaps most 'locally' here. But most training, even for a Coxswain's is not COLREG's specific. The 'rules' for using a motor boat that you learn are based on the COLREGS but the fact is most people who do the course wouldn't know this. Even when I needed my Coxswains for commercial work (which was policing), the COLREG's were not a major focus. The verbal exam was contextualized from memory for the type of work I would be doing as well.

So, for recreational use, I think probably for most places, it's not necessary to know the COLREG's, because what is needed to be known is covered in the requirements for a license to operate the vessel.

The 'gap', in this logic, is that there is absolutely no requirement for a large sail boat, designed without an engine to have any sort of license at all, so theoretically, that person, doesn't even have the basic knowledge the 'small boat' license gives.

And another 'gap', is that on a basic 'small boat' license, you can operate theoretically any size vessel include massive big motor vessels. That's frightening. And you see it every know and then. Though, there is a size limit on what you can bring into many ports when regardless of being recreational or not, you will need a pilot to bring your vessel in.
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Old 15-04-2015, 17:15   #231
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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3 blasts = engins going astern.

Boat coming from the right is the stand on vessel unless the sail boat was sailing. But many locals dont know the rules re sail boats
Even here in San Francisco not following the rules is far more common than following the rules.

Rule number 1 is avoid a collision at all costs.

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Old 15-04-2015, 17:22   #232
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

In the San Francisco Estuary, dealing with ships is easy. They are the stand-on vessels because of restricted waters. They presume you'll maneuver to avoid collision.





......


Do you suppose many sailboaters believe they always have the "right-of-way" merely because they are under sail?
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Old 15-04-2015, 17:47   #233
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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In the San Francisco Estuary, dealing with ships is easy. They are the stand-on vessels because of restricted waters. They presume you'll maneuver to avoid collision.





......


Do you suppose many sailboaters believe they always have the "right-of-way" merely because they are under sail?
Umm, that's not actually right. Vessels under 20 meters and sailing vessels are not allowed to "impede" vessels navigating in narrow channels who can safely navigate only in the channel. Rule 9. That does NOT make them the stand-on vessel.

This is actually another really excellent illustration of how standing-on is not anything like right of way. You are obligated by Rule 9 to "not impede" ships in channels, but at the very same time (!) you could be obligated to stand-on, if you get into a risk of collision situation with them. It's pretty hard to stand on, and not impede, at the same time, but that's what the rules say -- so far from any kind of right of way, is standing-on.


Practically speaking, in places like this, collision avoidance is easy. Just stay the **** out of the channels, and cross them only when the coast is clear. Don't interfere with ships. If you're outside the channel where ships can't go at all, there's zero risk of of collision, and so the steering & sailing rules never come into force at all. Nobody stands on, and nobody gives way. This is an excellent situation.
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Old 15-04-2015, 18:21   #234
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

Dockhead, yes I did simplify, but how many of us have 20-meter-plus vessels?
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Old 15-04-2015, 18:38   #235
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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This is actually another really excellent illustration of how standing-on is not anything like right of way. You are obligated by Rule 9 to "not impede" ships in channels, but at the very same time (!) you could be obligated to stand-on, if you get into a risk of collision situation with them. It's pretty hard to stand on, and not impede, at the same time, but that's what the rules say -- so far from any kind of right of way, is standing-on.

.
You might be surprised to hear this from me. But I must admit that is the best illustration I've heard you give of a separation of the two terms. In this illustration there is NO similarity of 'stand on' (but not impede) and having a 'right of way'. Which also go's to show that 'stand on' is the better wording

Ps. Still nothing wrong with the term to help explain it though
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Old 15-04-2015, 19:07   #236
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Fantastic, very advanced techniques, wow.

But how do you distinguish 15 degrees from 10 or from 20? It's not my experience that it's possible to eyeball aspect with even rough accuracy. Or maybe you have some technique for that?
A way I have heard to fairly accurately guesstimate bearings is the fist of an outstretched arm should be about 15 degrees.

I've actually used this, not in some time, but when I was a Weelsman on lookout and didn't have easy access to gyro repeaters because I was either on the bow or because for whatever reason I didn't want to get into somebody seniors way. It seemed to work reasonably well.

I know in nautical schools it's frowned on, but I often do round up towards another ships stern, I'm not going to get into plotting unless I need to, requires to much attention, which I could otherwise use on chit chatting with my mate or wheelsman or whoever is available for chit chatting.

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Old 15-04-2015, 20:13   #237
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

Oh yup thats right. Some tricky hand tricks..


Stretch your thumb and little finger as far from each other as you can. The span from tip to tip is about 25 degrees
Do the same with your index finger and little finger. The span is 15 degrees
Clench your fist at arms length, and hold it with the back of your hand facing you. The width is 10 degrees
Hold your three middle fingers together; they span about 5 degrees
The width of your little finger at armís length is 1 degree.

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Old 15-04-2015, 20:22   #238
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

...and the thumb at arm's length subtends about 2 degrees.

...which is a bit over 60 yards at 1 nm...
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Old 16-04-2015, 08:52   #239
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Do you know what is required to hold a licence to be captain of a ship of considerable size? Besides the theoretical knowledge do you know how many hours and miles of practice on lesser positions they have to have before making the tests for captain?

I believe we can say that we can assume that a ship captain knows more about the Colregs and collision avoidance then the typical yacht Captain.
Hi Polux

I did have a couple of Smileys tagged on to my post.
Yep, I know exactly what it takes to get a Master Mariners Foreign Going Certificate of Competency.
I first went to sea at the age of 16, and had my Masters ticket by the time I was 25, and have been sailing as a ships captain for the past 26 years.

But my point was, I would never assume that a watchkeeper on another ship was fully competent. I have seen dreadful standards at sea.
Bear in mind, the Captain of the ship might have a good understanding of the Colregs, but what about the Third Mate?

I can honestly say that some on this forum have demonstrated a better understanding than some so called professionals.

Not all those in charge of a ships watch even have if a valid certificate, the problem of fraudulently obtained certificates has been around for some time, and the situation is getting worse, not better.

Here is a link to a recent incident in the Dover Strait, read that report, then come back with your opinion on the competency of the watchkeeper, and keep in mind that its roughly 200 near misses to 1 serious incident.

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/coll...ast-of-england
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Old 16-04-2015, 08:56   #240
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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A way I have heard to fairly accurately guesstimate bearings is the fist of an outstretched arm should be about 15 degrees.

I've actually used this, not in some time, but when I was a Weelsman on lookout and didn't have easy access to gyro repeaters because I was either on the bow or because for whatever reason I didn't want to get into somebody seniors way. It seemed to work reasonably well.

I know in nautical schools it's frowned on, but I often do round up towards another ships stern, I'm not going to get into plotting unless I need to, requires to much attention, which I could otherwise use on chit chatting with my mate or wheelsman or whoever is available for chit chatting.

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I know that trick, and frowned on or not, I think it's useful

But we're not talking about bearings -- we're talking about aspect -- his heading relative to your position. A different thing.
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